Baptism of Desire: A hopeful theological premise that lacks the divine certainty of sacramental baptism.

Practically everyone needs the baptism of water for salvation – while in theory a person can be saved with the baptism of desire – Rector, Church Santa Maria Annunziata, Rome

Being saved with the baptism of desire etc he said is an impossibility. ( ‘impossibilisimo’).The Franciscan had got it right. The baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are not ‘practical’ ( defacto) exceptions .To claim that they are practical exceptions would be indifferentism and syncretism. It would be a negation of an infallible teaching. This would be a mortal sin and heresy. The stuff of excommunications. It would be a sacrilege for the priest offering Holy Mass.

Today morning at 10.30 a.m the priest offered Holy Mass in Italian with his face towards the altar and not the congregation. Communicants also received the Eucharist kneeling on a single pew, placed in the centre aisle.He was the Rector of the Church, Santa Maria di Annunziata, Rome. The Rector from the community Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate founded by Fr. Stefano Manelli F.I spoke on the necessity of the baptism of water for all people to go to Heaven.

Read more from Lionel Andrades

8 Comments

  1. I read the article by Lionel Andrades with a growing sense of woe. Clearly within the Catholic Church there remains a gulf of diversity that cripples its ecumenical mission in the world given it by Christ himself at his Ascension.

    My point is that whilst I freely recognise the strict law laid down by the author I reject its absolutism. I agree that in the past the vision held by many in the Catholic Church both pope and teachers has only accepted the possibility that Roman Catholics baptized in the faith have had the absolute possibility of salvation. Indeed by the creed we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins etc. Nevertheless it has always been held by Church authorities that Salvation may be given to non believers (non Roman Catholics in effect) by extraordinary grace etc.

    Further the article is incorrect because it asserts that we do not know of anyone outside the Catholic church that is practically saved. Hence non believers etc are all destined for hell. Yet that is unsound and not theologically logical in any sense whatsoever. Of the only two individuals we know as certain to be saved in heaven, neither were Roman Catholic; one was a criminal the other a loyal and good jewess!

    The notion that people that are not baptised Roman Catholic are in effect on the road to Hell, the abode of the wicked angels etc is obscene! It lacks both sound judgement and mercy and we must dismiss such notions as diabolical in origin. Even a simple glance at the world and our neighbour must if we have any humility whatsoever show us that there are many GOOD people that are for whatever reason are not Catholic. Our understanding of Jesus as the supreme mercy blankets out notions that Justice will destroy such humanity because of a lack of sacramental grace. God is both Love and mercy, tender-hearted and compassionate, Just and kindly, God brings people into creation because he loves them and indeed his whole earthly ministry in the incarnation was one of tenderness and hope.
    It is also true for example that people that lived Before Christ on earth were and may be redeemed by his sovereign goodness.

    So what else is wrong with this article? Basically it relies on the past of the Church without accepting the present or future of Church understanding. It ignores for example what Vatican 2 and the consequent direction of the Church has taken. Firstly today we in the Roman Catholic Church recognize the one true and apostolic Church BUT we also recognize the working of the Holy Spirit. That by his love and eternal goodness he is at work in both other churches that recognize scripture and the sacraments etc AND in Individuals that by good will and hopeful desire attempt to live God fearing Lives according to their own version of reality.
    Secondly, that by living according to an enlightened conscience even members of non Christian religions etc are affected by the grace of The Holy Spirit and the Church recognises that God is at work thus. Not limited by the visible authority of the Church God the Holy Spirit may draw souls to salvation by his own grace in ways that are unseen and extraordinary.
    Thus we are presented with the authority of Holy Scripture which in Matthew clearly makes no separation of creed at the last Judgement which all people are subject too. Hence the saved and the damned are in effect given life or otherwise not by their profession of faith but by their deeds. In so far as you did this (or did not do it) . .you did it unto me.

    It is about time that some of these catholic fossils that presume their own salvation is assured over the salvation of their neighbour woke up to the realization that we are one humanity and charity and kindness cannot be subjected to any law whatsoever. It is a singular grace and sacrament, baptism may help us grow in faith but we must never regard our fellow humanity with intolerance or arrogance.
    It is wrong to believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the only source of Gods grace. It has a special mission to preach the Good News of Salvation and to lighten the soul of man but it also recognises today that this is not a monopoly of gods grace nor is it alone in leading souls to salvation. That God is present in other religious theologies and by scripture and traditions must be recognised anew.

  2. 1. read the article by Lionel Andrades with a growing sense of woe. Clearly within the Catholic Church there remains a gulf of diversity that cripples its ecumenical mission in the world given it by Christ himself at his Ascension.
    Lionel: Ecumenism is important but with integrity and the truth otherwise it’s the usual meeting of liberal and leftist friends.
    My point is that whilst I freely recognize the strict law laid down by the author I reject its absolutism.
    Lionel: I cannot according to the teachings of the Catholic Church, before and after Vatican Council II, accept your relativism.
    I agree that in the past the vision held by many in the Catholic Church both pope and teachers has only accepted the possibility that Roman Catholics baptized in the faith have had the absolute possibility of salvation. Indeed by the creed we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins etc. Nevertheless it has always been held by Church authorities that Salvation may be given to non believers (non Roman Catholics in effect) by extraordinary grace etc.
    Lionel: It is true salvation can be given to non believers in certain circumstances by extraordinary grace. In general this is not the normal means of salvation chosen by God.
    Further the article is incorrect because it asserts that we do not know of anyone outside the Catholic Church that is practically saved. Hence non believers etc are all destined for hell.
    Lionel: Yes they are destined for Hell unless they convert into the Catholic Church. They need to respond to Jesus’ Sacrifice for them.
    Yet that is unsound and not theologically logical in any sense whatsoever. Of the only two individuals we know as certain to be saved in heaven, neither were Roman Catholic; one was a criminal the other a loyal and good jewess!
    Lionel: We know for certain to be in Heaven? The Church does not say that Judas is in Hell and neither does the Church say that Judas is in Heaven. Scripture indicates he is damned.
    The notion that people that are not baptized Roman Catholic are in effect on the road to Hell, the abode of the wicked angels etc is obscene!
    Lionel: It is the teaching of the Catholic Church for centuries, inspired by the Holy Spirit.
    It lacks both sound judgment and mercy and we must dismiss such notions as diabolical in origin. Even a simple glance at the world and our neighbor must if we have any humility whatsoever show us that there are many GOOD people that are for whatever reason are not Catholic.
    Lionel: A person may seem good, educated, cultured etc however the Church teaches that all it takes is one unconfessed mortal sin for a soul to go to Hell. Gandhi had many good qualities however he had the Faith preached to him and he did not enter the Church. He also had a problem with his sexuality. We cannot assume that he is in Heaven.

    Our understanding of Jesus as the supreme mercy blankets out notions that Justice will destroy such humanity because of a lack of sacramental grace.
    Lionel: Catholics also believe that Jesus is supreme mercy and he allows us to choose the way of God or our egoism and Satan.
    God is both Love and mercy, tender-hearted and compassionate, Just and kindly, God brings people into creation because he loves them and indeed his whole earthly ministry in the incarnation was one of tenderness and hope.
    Lionel: True however there is also the issue of evil and its presence on earth. The Bible mentions Hell.

    It is also true for example that people that lived Before Christ on earth were and may be redeemed by his sovereign goodness.
    Lionel: They had to wait for the coming of the Messiah to go to Heaven.
    So what else is wrong with this article? Basically it relies on the past of the Church without accepting the present or future of Church understanding. It ignores for example what Vatican 2 and the consequent direction of the Church has taken.
    Lionel: We accept Vatican Council II and interpret it as a continuation of the past.
    Firstly today we in the Roman Catholic Church recognize the one true and apostolic Church BUT we also recognize the working of the Holy Spirit.
    Lionel. True. The Church however does not say that the Holy Spirit saves all non Catholics or that all things in their religions are inspired by the Holy Spirit.
    That by his love and eternal goodness he is at work in both other churches that recognize scripture and the sacraments etc AND in Individuals that by good will and hopeful desire attempt to live God fearing Lives according to their own version of reality.
    Lionel: True however we also have to recognize that though there are ‘good and holy ‘things in other religions their religions are not paths to salvation. (Ad Gentes 7, Lumen Gentes 14, Vatican Council II)

    Secondly, that by living according to an enlightened conscience even members of non Christian religions etc are affected by the grace of The Holy Spirit and the Church recognizes that God is at work thus. Not limited by the visible authority of the Church God the Holy Spirit may draw souls to salvation by his own grace in ways that are unseen and extraordinary.
    Lionel: True this is a possibility but de facto the normal means to go to Heaven which God has chosen is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.

    Thus we are presented with the authority of Holy Scripture which in Matthew clearly makes no separation of creed at the last Judgment which all people are subject too.
    Lionel: The Catholic Church makes the separation of Creed since the Bible does so. ‘Those who do not believe will be damned’-Mk: 16:16, there was the baptism of water within the community which was the original Catholic Church (John 3:5)
    Hence the saved and the damned are in effect given life or otherwise not by their profession of faith but by their deeds. In so far as you did this (or did not do it). .you did it unto me.
    Lionel: The Church recognizes the importance of deeds and faith (creed).
    It is about time that some of these catholic fossils that presume their own salvation is assured over the salvation of their neighbor woke up to the realization that we are one humanity and charity and kindness cannot be subjected to any law whatsoever.
    Lionel: Jesus was on earth 2000 years back. He is older than some of the teachings which have come to us from the Church Fathers and times later.

    It is a singular grace and sacrament, baptism may help us grow in faith but we must never regard our fellow humanity with intolerance or arrogance.
    Lionel: I hope you can open your mind to the teachings of the Church and not assume that your secular relative conditioning must be believed by all.

    It is wrong to believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the only source of Gods grace.
    Lionel: This is the centuries old teaching.
    It has a special mission to preach the Good News of Salvation and to lighten the soul of man but it also recognizes today that this is not a monopoly of gods grace nor is it alone in leading souls to salvation. That God is present in other religious theologies and by scripture and traditions must be recognized anew.
    Lionel: The Holy Spirit can be present in other religions but other religions we need to accept also have ‘errors, superstition and deficiencies’ (Dominus Iesus)

  3. I agree that the original article does show a collision of ideas within the Church and that is after all part of our shared history both within the church and within humanity.

    In raising my perhaps more liberal (though being European perhaps we have a slightly different perspective from Americans of that word at present) attitude, I tried to identify what is I perceive with a growing sense of alarm what often appears to be Catholic Truth as the total understanding of reality.
    It is not that I object to understanding catholic truth but it is to highlight that in today’s very confused world old truth structures have become unstable. The Catholic Church desires its people therefore to embrace new belief possibilities and to be understanding and tolerant of all our neighbours. By this more open relationship with itself and humanity the Church claims the help of The Holy Spirit as it attempts to learn what God wishes for it.
    This does not mean we drop all previous understanding and authority as laid down by the Church; Nor that all religions are equal to the Catholic faith which remains a supernatural grace; rather it should lead us to go forward with that knowledge but also to seek new ways to find Almighty God. We are no longer bound by common ignorance and although it is at times painful, we are asked to grow-up in Gods generous understanding.

    One of the greatest assets of the Protestant movement has surely been the adoption by the community of Scripture? This movement to find God and his plan for individuals and for society has had a singular affect on the way Catholics engage with one another today.
    The belief that God is all merciful and desires our salvation, the salvation of the many, should encourage us to respond with kindness and humility towards our brethren.

    The problem is that as Catholics we suffer a little from the threat of hell and damnation. The fact that Hell exists is a truth and cannot be argued against. But whom is damned is very contested.
    In charity we cannot suggest that any human is damned either Hitler or Mao or any bad person. It is not for us to pass judgement on Gods justice. Whilst scripture may imply Judas was damned we do not know that as certain and it remains only an interpretation of the Hebrew/Aramaic wording etc.
    The two individuals that I suggested were known to be in heaven were the criminal thief at Christ’s crucifixion and Our lady. Apart from these we do not know of souls redeemed but of course logic states many to be saved as both Church and scripture imply
    The salvation of Gandhi is beyond our knowledge but we should not be surprised if God saved him too. It is of great concern that we must not spend too much time on the speck in our brothers eye but worry more about the plank in our own. Nevertheless it is logical that those people that choose hell by evil design may obtain it. This is a long way from suggesting that other Christians or people of other religions i.e. people of good will are damned because they lack sacramental graces.
    In the past the Church did suggest such things but it was clearly wrong to do so. An error that was based on pride and not humility. Today whilst we are far from perfect in the Church we have a greater sense of history and the World and how it works. There are great dangers but that has always been so and we still recognize the notion for example of the Church militant.

    My central lightening point is that if God is Love and If we believe that he came down from heaven for us men (mankind) and for our salvation then we can be assured that he will deal with us more kindly than we deserve or anticipate. When I see starving children etc in Africa I do not imagine that such a Mighty Lord will destroy forever these little ones nor do I contemplate how any thinking person could imagine it thus! My imperfect compassion is moved to feel great love for them but how much greater is the Lord of Life’s love?

    Finally I do not impose my own secular relativism on other people. That is just wrong!
    But I do maintain that whilst other religions are unequal and many have very peculiar and improper notions within them by degree, many also hold great truths and Catholics can and should learn from them.
    I do not refute Sacramental grace and I restate the belief that Baptism as laid down by the Catholic Church is a source of singular grace both for the individual and the world. Yet nor do I accept that we Catholics are superior in grace to our neighbour and holier than thou. Nor do I accept the idea that hell awaits those that are outside the catholic Church in its more visible form. Hence, I believe that the Holy Spirit will manifest salvation to the many even at the cost of error on earth by such individuals. Obviously any salvation to any person is because of the Birth, Ministry, passion and death and resurrection etc of Jesus Christ, our lord. How that is graciously afforded us depends on his own divine mercy and by His Spirit and by the will of his father. We maybe redeemed in ways we do not fathom and curiously whilst we accept the authority and teaching of the Catholic church we also understand that God moves in mysterious ways and is not subject to what we expect. In this manner, because of Jesus, sinners may be saved the world over.
    If we are ever to understand the laws of the Church, its dogma and its historical standing in the world then we can only do so properly in a spirit of love and reconciliation. The ecumenical movement is not an option that we can ignore it is an essential part of Catholic understanding and we ignore it at our peril. However, if we dare to be open to grace and not retreat into a past cavern of mumbled beatitudes then we shall not fear but be true children of the almighty and pleasing to him.

  4. I agree that the original article does show a collision of ideas within the Church and that is after all part of our shared history both within the church and within humanity.

    Lionel.
    Sir, your ‘collision of ideas’ is still called heresy.

    In raising my perhaps more liberal (though being European perhaps we have a slightly different perspective from Americans of that word at present) attitude, I tried to identify what is I perceive with a growing sense of alarm what often appears to be Catholic Truth as the total understanding of reality.
    It is not that I object to understanding catholic truth but it is to highlight that in today’s very confused world old truth structures have become unstable.
    Lionel:
    Not for believers. Those who hold to the teachings of the Church as they were taught in the past and today, are not confused.
    The Catholic Church desires its people therefore to embrace new belief possibilities and to be understanding and tolerant of all our neighbours.
    Lionel:
    Jesus tells us to love our neighbours. We can be tolerant and understanding for Jesus and also at the same time not change our beliefs for new popular ones.

    By this more open relationship with itself and humanity the Church claims the help of The Holy Spirit as it attempts to learn what God wishes for it.
    Lionel:
    There are many people who are open to falsehoods in other religions and they assume that it is the work of the Holy Spirit.

    This does not mean we drop all previous understanding and authority as laid down by the Church; Nor that all religions are equal to the Catholic faith which remains a supernatural grace; rather it should lead us to go forward with that knowledge but also to seek new ways to find Almighty God. We are no longer bound by common ignorance and although it is at times painful, we are asked to grow-up in Gods generous understanding.
    Lionel:
    You still camouflage your confusion and instablily by denying a dogma of the Church, outside the church no salvation.
    One of the greatest assets of the Protestant movement has surely been the adoption by the community of Scripture? This movement to find God and his plan for individuals and for society has had a singular affect on the way Catholics engage with one another today.
    The belief that God is all merciful and desires our salvation, the salvation of the many, should encourage us to respond with kindness and humility towards our brethren.
    Lionel:
    Yes we need to respond with kindness and humility towards our brethren and speak the truth, at least when asked.
    The problem is that as Catholics we suffer a little from the threat of hell and damnation. The fact that Hell exists is a truth and cannot be argued against. But whom is damned is very contested.
    Lionel:
    It is contested by those who do not accept the teachings of the Church as the final moral authority.

    In charity we cannot suggest that any human is damned either Hitler or Mao or any bad person. It is not for us to pass judgement on Gods justice. Whilst scripture may imply Judas was damned we do not know that as certain and it remains only an interpretation of the Hebrew/Aramaic wording etc.
    Lionel:
    In charity and faithfulness to the teaching of the Church, the only Church Jesus founded and which is inspired by the Holy Spirit, we sugesst,say and perhaps should shout out, that all non Catholics on earth are on the way to Hell. On the way to Hell means that in general they are going to Hell.

    The two individuals that I suggested were known to be in heaven were the criminal thief at Christ’s crucifixion and Our lady. Apart from these we do not know of souls redeemed but of course logic states many to be saved as both Church and scripture imply.
    Lionel:
    True,also many ‘to be not saved’ as both Church and Scripture imply..

    The salvation of Gandhi is beyond our knowledge but we should not be surprised if God saved him too. It is of great concern that we must not spend too much time on the speck in our brothers eye but worry more about the plank in our own. Nevertheless it is logical that those people that choose hell by evil design may obtain it. This is a long way from suggesting that other Christians or people of other religions i.e. people of good will are damned because they lack sacramental graces.

    Lionel:
    We agree that those who do evil choose Hell. However we need to also agree that those who do not choose the Catholic Church after being informed are also on the way to Hell. This includes Gandhi.
    In the past the Church did suggest such things but it was clearly wrong to do so. An error that was based on pride and not humility.

    Lionel:
    ‘clearly wrong to do so’, ‘ pride and not humility’…on what do you base your judgements the teaching of the Church or the local newsaper editors ,politicians etc….

    Today whilst we are far from perfect in the Church we have a greater sense of history and the World and how it works. There are great dangers but that has always been so and we still recognize the notion for example of the Church militant.
    My central lightening point is that if God is Love and If we believe that he came down from heaven for us men (mankind) and for our salvation then we can be assured that he will deal with us more kindly than we deserve or anticipate.

    Lionel:
    I also share your hope and this is what I pray for.
    When I see starving children etc in Africa I do not imagine that such a Mighty Lord will destroy forever these little ones nor do I contemplate how any thinking person could imagine it thus! My imperfect compassion is moved to feel great love for them but how much greater is the Lord of Life’s love?
    Lionel:
    I can understand. It is difficult. For many it is hard to accept this truth.However it is important that we accept this teaching now when we can do something and not after we die when we are confused and can do nothing about our situation.
    God is powerful and Good, however the Old and New Testament indicate that ‘the fear of God ‘ is a virtue.
    Finally I do not impose my own secular relativism on other people. That is just wrong!
    Lionel:
    I just wanted to say why should we accept your secular relativism for the magisterial truth which has been constant over the centuries.

    But I do maintain that whilst other religions are unequal and many have very peculiar and improper notions within them by degree, many also hold great truths and Catholics can and should learn from them.
    Lionel:
    I appreciate what you are saying. I also had this attitude. I was a Teacher of Transcendental Meditation. It is only just recently that I disovered that one of the mantras I gave out was the name of Satan and it is used commonly in Freemason Lodges.
    I do not refute Sacramental grace and I restate the belief that Baptism as laid down by the Catholic Church is a source of singular grace both for the individual and the world.
    Lionel:
    Yes this is the Church teaching and we agree here .
    Yet nor do I accept that we Catholics are superior in grace to our neighbour and holier than thou.
    Lionel:
    God’s grace is available for all who respond. So is salvation. Jesus died to save all people, Catholic and non Catholic.
    Nor do I accept the idea that hell awaits those that are outside the catholic Church in its more visible form.
    Lionel:
    In general Hell awaits those who are outside the Church in its visible. However those who know about the Church and those who do not know and are in ignorance will be decided by God. So in general while all non Catholic s on earth are oriented to Hell, with Original Sin and mortal sins committed in that state, it is possible that known to God some could be saved. We pray that this happens not just for a few by many.

    Hence, I believe that the Holy Spirit will manifest salvation to the many even at the cost of error on earth by such individuals. Obviously any salvation to any person is because of the Birth, Ministry, passion and death and resurrection etc of Jesus Christ, our lord. How that is graciously afforded us depends on his own divine mercy and by His Spirit and by the will of his father. We maybe redeemed in ways we do not fathom and curiously whilst we accept the authority and teaching of the Catholic church we also understand that God moves in mysterious ways and is not subject to what we expect. In this manner, because of Jesus, sinners may be saved the world over.
    Lionel:
    I would hope that it was so and that the majority of people are saved.However Jesus, the Church and the Bible indicate difficult truths.
    If we are ever to understand the laws of the Church, its dogma and its historical standing in the world then we can only do so properly in a spirit of love and reconciliation.
    Lionel:
    Yes,love,reconciliation and humility.
    The ecumenical movement is not an option that we can ignore it is an essential part of Catholic understanding and we ignore it at our peril.
    Lionel:
    The ecumenical movement is not being ignored. It is in the interest of anti Catholic,political forces, that it continues in the present manner with all its falsity.
    However, if we dare to be open to grace and not retreat into a past cavern of mumbled beatitudes then we shall not fear but be true children of the almighty and pleasing to him.
    Lionel:
    For those who are faithful to the teachings of the Church the ecumenical movement is another great opportunity for Catholic Mission.

  5. An interesting reply and I shall make a few points overall as a guide to where I think we agreed or otherwise.

    Firstly, am not sure that heresy is about the debate of ideas. Heresy is about the refuting of agreed theological facts and often involves individuals in self important attitudes that out weigh their common sense and general sense of balance commonly resulting in sin. In raising my own observations of the article I am hopefully showing that even opinions within accepted orthodoxy are contested. That relies upon a healthy system and we should not buckle under the notion that such debate and contradictions are sinful.
    Yet believers that hold firm to the faith as presented in the past and today may easily become confused.
    Even Faith itself is about doubt and uncertainty. As Catholics we are not able to gleam the future anymore than anyone else. As the world grows around us and we become more aware of our individuality we are often confronted by confusion and weakness.
    It is true that the Catholic Church has great truth within its arsenal and we are able to draw on this for strength and courage. However as human beings we should be aware that we are subject to many influences. Hence sometimes the Church is forced to catch up with society in approving new ways of worship or understanding itself and its direction. Of course such things can confuse us even more but that is because of our misunderstanding and personal weaknesses but these are all part of our shared humanity.
    My point here is that even believers suffer from being misunderstood and failing to understand the faith. It is not heretical to ask questions but it can be part of our growing in the faith.

    Secondly, Jesus tells us to love each other as a central theme of his life on earth. It is therefore essential that we love our neighbour even though this is perhaps ironically the hardest commandment of them all. Nevertheless we are obliged to love our neighbour and it is certain that on this will depend our eternal future. No law or dogmatic embrace or power or sovereignty may contradict this eternal claim that Catholics and all peoples of good will no matter their state hold to. That love is essential in any human condition that has a relationship to God of whatever design.
    Whilst many false prophets can claim they use something akin to the Holy Spirit they are shown false by the fruit they bear. It is also a central claim of the Christian Church that the Holy Spirit is essential, indeed without him there is no church at all.

    Sorry but we are always going to disagree about the “hell thing”. The idea that our protestant, orthodox, Coptic, Armenian or any other Christian group of people are going to hell is to be refuted. There is no Christian moral teaching that condemns such people into eternal darkness and Scripture if it means anything at all must show us that God is merciful and desires our salvation.
    We are often confronted by mortal sin as an exclusion clause to gods saving grace. Yet today we are far more kindly toward this often psychological problem. Basically whilst mortal sin does exist and we may choose to adopt its shroud in for example the wilful acceptance of wicked actions as historically attained by groups such as the Nazis and their murder of millions etc. Yet in other ways it is not so easy to understand. For example, in the past suicides were thought to be in mortal sin yet we know today that it is not necessarily so and both mental and physical attributes may affect such behaviour. So what was thought of as so certain is far more complicated in today’s growing humanity but perhaps that is as it should be? In recalling original sin we are sometimes bound to overlook original innocence.

    Here we must take a leap in faith and common sense but the love of Almighty God as recognised by the Catholic Church (or the Universal body of Christ as it is meant) must be that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross gives life to the whole world, even the whole of creation. This can logically mean that all peoples of good will, no matter their religion, may, by doing good deeds etc draw down gods grace and be lifted into paradise.
    The alternative as presented by the only Catholics on the whole shall go to heaven idea presents us with the notion that the sacrifice of Calvary was for the few or at least any benefit received would be sparse. That even his apostles were damned because whilst they enjoyed Pentecost etc they apparently remained Jews certainly until St Paul and the council of Jerusalem! Further that today anybody doing good works etc that is non catholic is deluded and merely subject to the power of Satan and his diabolical perversions of the truth. Such an idea is neither logical nor fitting for any Christian to hold. It is not a truth but a twisted perversion of the truth that maintains God as a wrath filled judge and not as Our Father.
    Like Mother Teresa of Calcutta whom never asked what creed the poor advanced but chose to see Jesus in them all, wretched and despised though they were. To care for them and try to love them as humanity not denying her faith but seeing that her faith only mattered in regard to love shown to others. Certain that they would not be destroyed because of a lack of their own understanding of the Gospels, she chose rather to love them as few had loved them in life so that in death they should have some of the dignity afforded to true royalty of heaven. To imagine that she ever conceded the idea that they would be thrown into hell fire as soon as they died is to misunderstand both sanctity of such people and the true interpretation of holy law.

    Thirdly, and in observation there is much we appear to agree on and hopefully that is as it should be. We certainly do not agree on much but I suspect this is because of our life experiences and the way we interpret various articles of faith. I am very aware from being some years in an architects department that appearances can be deceptive when dressed up to be attractive.
    As catholics we have given to us great graces that should inspire and help us deal with the problems that often cling to us in life. Yet we must avoid at all costs the temptation of the Pharisee that promotes the law but neglects the spirit behind it.
    If we have a faith in a loving and good god then it seems logical that we should be bold in approaching him daily. We must not fear the rattle of ignorance and its half hearted cry of capability verse courage. As Catholics and in an ecumenical reality we surely should appreciate our neighbour whom has scripture (with its full equality to tradition) and sacramental graces as baptism is valid still. In so far as non-Christians are concerned we should be able to recognise the tradition and person of God the father by his general character. Hence for example both Muslims and Jews have the tradition of God in their historical scriptures.
    We must be optimistic and hope for salvation for all peoples even as we hope it for ourselves.
    I do not advance the notion of relativism that all things are the same and depending on a point of view. The truth is always the truth but we must be careful how we express it and not assume that our own Catholic faith justifies us without the more important regard to love of our neighbour.

  6. An interesting reply and I shall make a few points overall as a guide to where I think we agreed or otherwise.
    Firstly, am not sure that heresy is about the debate of ideas. Heresy is about the refuting of agreed theological facts and often involves individuals in self important attitudes that out weigh their common sense and general sense of balance commonly resulting in sin.
    Lionel:
    Heresy is about sin. It is about pride and deception. It is rebellion.

    In raising my own observations of the article I am hopefully showing that even opinions within accepted orthodoxy are contested. That relies upon a healthy system and we should not buckle under the notion that such debate and contradictions are sinful.
    Yet believers that hold firm to the faith as presented in the past and today may easily become confused.
    Lionel:
    Theological discussions are welcome in the Catholic Church as long as they are within the teachings of the Catholic Church.
    Even Faith itself is about doubt and uncertainty.
    Lionel:
    Faith is about certainity when you have the Faith.

    As Catholics we are not able to gleam the future anymore than anyone else. As the world grows around us and we become more aware of our individuality we are often confronted by confusion and weakness.
    It is true that the Catholic Church has great truth within its arsenal and we are able to draw on this for strength and courage. However as human beings we should be aware that we are subject to many influences. Hence sometimes the Church is forced to catch up with society in approving new ways of worship or understanding itself and its direction. Of course such things can confuse us even more but that is because of our misunderstanding and personal weaknesses but these are all part of our shared humanity.
    My point here is that even believers suffer from being misunderstood and failing to understand the faith. It is not heretical to ask questions but it can be part of our growing in the faith.
    Lionel:
    One can have theological dicussions, ask questions but remain within the teachings of the Catholic Church.
    Secondly, Jesus tells us to love each other as a central theme of his life on earth. It is therefore essential that we love our neighbour even though this is perhaps ironically the hardest commandment of them all. Nevertheless we are obliged to love our neighbour and it is certain that on this will depend our eternal future. No law or dogmatic embrace or power or sovereignty may contradict this eternal claim that Catholics and all peoples of good will no matter their state hold to. That love is essential in any human condition that has a relationship to God of whatever design.
    Lionel:
    Love is not a contradiction to the dogmatic teachings.

    Whilst many false prophets can claim they use something akin to the Holy Spirit they are shown false by the fruit they bear. It is also a central claim of the Christian Church that the Holy Spirit is essential, indeed without him there is no church at all.
    Lionel:
    It is the Holy Spirit which has given us many Church teachings which you reject.

    Sorry but we are always going to disagree about the “hell thing”. The idea that our protestant, orthodox, Coptic, Armenian or any other Christian group of people are going to hell is to be refuted. There is no Christian moral teaching that condemns such people into eternal darkness and Scripture if it means anything at all must show us that God is merciful and desires our salvation.
    Lionel:
    They are not condemned as long as they live. As long as they are on earth there is hope. There is the possibilty of them converting and being saved. The Holy Spirit works personally with each person, we know what is right and wrong deep within our heart. So they all have an oppotuinity to make choices. It is these choices which they make that will decide if they go to Heaven or Hell.
    The Catholic Church’s Faith teaching indicate that they are all going to Hell unless they convert into the Catholic Church. http://catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation

    ST.TERESA OF AVILA’S DESCRIPTION OF HELL
    “A long time after the Lord had already granted me many of the favors I’ve mentioned and other very lofty ones, while I was in prayer one day, I suddenly found that, without knowing how, I had seemingly been put in hell. I understood that the Lord wanted me to see the place the devils had prepared there for me and which I merited because of my sins. This experience took place within the shortest space of time, but even were I to live for many years I think it would be impossible for me to forget it. The entrance it seems to me was similar to a very long and narrow alleyway, like an oven, low and dark and confined; the floor seemed to me to consist of dirty, muddy water emitting foul stench and swarming with putrid vermin. At the end of the alleyway a hole that looked like a small cupboard was hollowed out in the wall; there I found I was placed in a cramped condition. All of this was delightful to see in comparison with what I felt there. What I have described can hardly be exaggerated.

    “What I felt, it seems to me, cannot even begin to be exaggerated; nor can it be understood. I experienced a fire in the soul that I don’t know how I could describe. The bodily pains were so unbearable that though I had suffered excruciating ones in this life and according to what doctors say, the worst that can be suffered on earth for all my nerves were shrunken when I was paralyzed, plus many other sufferings of many kinds that I endured and even some as I said, caused by the devil, these were all nothing in comparison with the ones I experienced there. I saw furthermore that they would go on without end and without ever ceasing. This, however, was nothing next to the soul’s agonizing: a constriction, a suffocation, an affliction so keenly felt and with such a despairing and tormenting unhappiness that I don’t know how to word it strongly enough. To say the experience is as though the soul were continually being wrested from the body would be insufficient, for it would make you think somebody else is taking away the life, whereas here it is the soul itself that tears itself in pieces. The fact is that I don’t know how to give a sufficiently powerful description of that interior fire and that despair, coming in addition to such extreme torments and pains. I didn’t see who inflicted them on me, but, as it seemed to me, I felt myself burning and crumbling; and I repeat the worst was that interior fire and despair.

    “Being in such an unwholesome place, so unable to hope for any consolation, I found it impossible either to sit down or to lie down, nor was there any room, even though they put me in this kind of hole made in the wall. Those walls, which were terrifying to see, closed in on themselves and suffocated everything. There was no light, but all was enveloped in the blackest darkness. I don’t understand how this could be, that everything painful to see was visible.”
    [Source: The Collected Works of St. Teresa of Avila, Volume 1, Chapter 32: paragraphs: 1,2,3. Published by Institute of Carmelite Studies Publications, Washington, D.C.]
    ________________________________

    We are often confronted by mortal sin as an exclusion clause to gods saving grace. Yet today we are far more kindly toward this often psychological problem. Basically whilst mortal sin does exist and we may choose to adopt its shroud in for example the wilful acceptance of wicked actions as historically attained by groups such as the Nazis and their murder of millions etc. Yet in other ways it is not so easy to understand. For example, in the past suicides were thought to be in mortal sin yet we know today that it is not necessarily so and both mental and physical attributes may affect such behaviour.
    Lionel:
    Suicide is still a mortal sin.

    So what was thought of as so certain is far more complicated in today’s growing humanity but perhaps that is as it should be? In recalling original sin we are sometimes bound to overlook original innocence.
    Lionel:
    The church does not teach original innonce but original sin.

    Here we must take a leap in faith and common sense but the love of Almighty God as recognised by the Catholic Church (or the Universal body of Christ as it is meant) must be that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross gives life to the whole world, even the whole of creation. This can logically mean that all peoples of good will, no matter their religion, may, by doing good deeds etc draw down gods grace and be lifted into paradise.
    Lionel:
    Yes all people of good will whose good will and consciene is expressed by entering the Church, will be lifted into Paradise.

    The alternative as presented by the only Catholics on the whole shall go to heaven idea presents us with the notion that the sacrifice of Calvary was for the few or at least any benefit received would be sparse.
    Lionel:
    The notion is still that the Sacrifice of Calvary was for all and those who respond receive the grace needed for salvation. One can only respond by entering the Catholic Church. This was how God chose it.

    That even his apostles were damned because whilst they enjoyed Pentecost etc they apparently remained Jews certainly until St Paul and the council of Jerusalem!

    Lionel:
    The Apostles accepted Jesus as the Saviour and were baptized in the community which was the origins of the Catholic Church.

    Further that today anybody doing good works etc that is non catholic is deluded and merely subject to the power of Satan and his diabolical perversions of the truth.
    Such an idea is neither logical nor fitting for any Christian to hold. It is not a truth but a twisted perversion of the truth that maintains God as a wrath filled judge and not as Our Father.
    Lionel:
    We do not claim that non Catholics are diabolical. Man was born good but carries the sin of Adam on his soul.With the baptism of water given to adults with Catholics Faith the Original Sin is removed and we can receive the value of Jesus Christ’s Sacrifice.

    Like Mother Teresa of Calcutta whom never asked what creed the poor advanced but chose to see Jesus in them all, wretched and despised though they were. To care for them and try to love them as humanity not denying her faith but seeing that her faith only mattered in regard to love shown to others.
    Lionel:
    Mother Teresa loved the poor and saw Jesus within them and she wanted them to convert into the Church to save their soul. She cared not only for their body but also their soul.

    Certain that they would not be destroyed because of a lack of their own understanding of the Gospels, she chose rather to love them as few had loved them in life so that in death they should have some of the dignity afforded to true royalty of heaven. To imagine that she ever conceded the idea that they would be thrown into hell fire as soon as they died is to misunderstand both sanctity of such people and the true interpretation of holy law.
    Lionel:
    Please do not assume that Mother Teresa rejected the teachings of the Catholic Church.

    Thirdly, and in observation there is much we appear to agree on and hopefully that is as it should be. We certainly do not agree on much but I suspect this is because of our life experiences and the way we interpret various articles of faith. I am very aware from being some years in an architects department that appearances can be deceptive when dressed up to be attractive.
    As catholics we have given to us great graces that should inspire and help us deal with the problems that often cling to us in life. Yet we must avoid at all costs the temptation of the Pharisee that promotes the law but neglects the spirit behind it.
    If we have a faith in a loving and good god then it seems logical that we should be bold in approaching him daily. We must not fear the rattle of ignorance and its half hearted cry of capability verse courage. As Catholics and in an ecumenical reality we surely should appreciate our neighbour whom has scripture (with its full equality to tradition) and sacramental graces as baptism is valid still.
    Lionel:
    Yes we can love all Christians but also know that even though we have much in common with other Catholics, those Catholics are going to Hell if they commit a mortal sin of faith or morals.

    In so far as non-Christians are concerned we should be able to recognise the tradition and person of God the father by his general character. Hence for example both Muslims and Jews have the tradition of God in their historical scriptures.
    We must be optimistic and hope for salvation for all peoples even as we hope it for ourselves.
    Lionel:
    Yes we must hope for the salvation of all peoples even as we hope for it for outselves and we must accept the conditions for salvation, however difficult and hard they may seem to many of us now.

    I do not advance the notion of relativism that all things are the same and depending on a point of view. The truth is always the truth but we must be careful how we express it and not assume that our own Catholic faith justifies us without the more important regard to love of our neighbour.
    Lionel:At the same time we must not feel obliged to believe that expressing the truth is a sign of a lack of love for our neihbour.Even though at times it is difficult because of our personal weakness.

  7. Some interesting points raised.
    I will be as brief as possible because we both seem to have rather conflicting ideas about what is expected or asked of us in life.

    Heresy is about many things even about misunderstandings. We recall for example that in the early Church what became known as heresy was at first seen as a possible alternative to other versions. In his denial of Jesus’ equality with his father etc Arian proposed what was considered usual Roman practice that the Father was the head of the family etc. Only after Nicene and latter Councils was it finally declared anathema by what became orthodox views. The fact remains that what ended as denounced started as half orthodox view and indeed affected several saints that bent towards its logic. Also of course Luther and his anger at the Church of his day proved he was at the start correct and the Catholic Church was wrong to behave as it did. Pope John Paul 2nd conceded as much in St peters in Geneva. Heretical ideas may be finally mistaken but alas so has much of church history in the persecution of these people. Not much to boast about before the throne of God in the way that the church has often behaved towards some members of society. If heresy is a sin then so is pride and the wilful destruction of human life.

    Theological discussions are sometimes tolerated within the catholic Church but often new ideas that are hard to digest or result in personal differences are blocked. Sometimes for many years but often such various ideas may resurface (alas often years later when the original thinker may be dead?) to hold sway and bring to life new paths for the Church.

    No sorry we disagree fundamentally on faith. I reject that it is certain. I know of no honest person that can say they have such a faith indeed if faith was certain it would not be faith at all. If we had the faith of a mustard seed we could command the mountains to move asunder etc. We are of little faith and of great doubt but that is our victory over sin and death because it is our smallness that draws down grace from heaven. (ala St Faustina etc) Our ability to commit heroic actions because of this “little faith” fragile and wanting though it may be, is the glory of the Church on earth before God.

    In raising the notion of love and dogma (my central point may have been misunderstood?) is that all dogma and all teaching and anything that is worth anything , natural or supernatural, everything that is or shall be or has been, everything of matter or of spirit can only prosper and live because of love. Love is the very nature of God himself and Love is finally what everything is about.
    The Pharisees at the time of Jesus (some of them anyway) had forgotten about Love and they were full of the law and its promises. They were after all the Children of Israel and had the promise of God that they were special. They believed that following ritual and law justified them and made them holy and above other sinful people. To them there is the rude awakening of the Condemnation of Jesus. Our Lord did not get angry because they followed the law but essentially that was all they had, they had no love in them and were useless to grace. When Jesus condemns such men he did so because they refused to understand notions such as mercy and compassion and refused to listen to his voice of peace given to sinners everywhere.

    If people entering the Church are lifted to Paradise what do we consider the Church is? It is not about bricks and mortar etc nor about great artistic heritage . . it is surely about the Body of Christ and in that many Christians partake. For example the Communion of the Greek and eastern Orthodox Church is absolutely valid in the Roman Church and many others are equal to this. In essence they remain in what we call the see of Rome and their sacraments etc are valid. Many protestants also believe and in the uk for example Pope Benedict has allowed special ordnances which accept that much of their office is acceptable, indeed baptism even if carried out by a heretic is full baptism and Christians accept this as absolute.

    There is always hope Lionel. Even when a person has died there is hope. We have the communion of saints and purgatory and the holy souls and the effect of prayer, good works and sacrifice which can we believe lighten a souls final move into paradise. There is always hope.
    If a soul is damned and the Church does not have the ability or justice to make a claim on any individual as I had noted earlier then our prayers may be used by God as he sees fit etc. BUT we are not allowed to imagine that non Catholics are damned etc because that is a sin in itself against Gods Justice and his Charity. Rather we should try and believe that God is about mercy and gentleness and our brethren (both other Christians and of other religions that may identify God in tradition and other form) are to be redeemed. That is not a point that is debated because it is central to a “Christian” and anything else is from the evil one and must be rejected.

    Again I think we are in 100% disagreement alas. Suicide may be a mortal sin but in the modern church and its more kindly disposition we do not know the state of a soul. The qualifications for sin cannot be guaranteed as absolute. Sorry but I think you will find both clergy and hierarchy are more charitable towards this act then past ideas held.
    Incidentally the Church has always allowed for Original innocence because that is how God first created man and our journey through life is partly a return home to that state. In baptism we have original sin wiped out and that is why the Church has/had always taught that baptised children that die went straight to heaven; not because of original sins effect but because they were innocent. In recent times the belief in a state called Limbo has also been reviewed accordingly.

    I am aware of St Teresa and others that vividly described a vision of hell. I am not against any belief in hell as I have stated above previously but I am against the idea that a merciless God throws innocent people into it. The best description of Hell I know comes from the author C.S.lewis whom said that hell “was a door locked from the inside”.

    In what way do I assume that Mother Teresa rejects the teaching of the Catholic Church? I would politely but firmly remind you that I rather suggest that in her statement on love etc she was nearer to the catholic church than many others. That she was stating the importance of Love over everything which I contest is what I have tried to do in all the above. If it does not fit with the ideas that you hold of the Church then I am sorry but I have not stated anything which is not in the understanding of the Catholic Church today?

    We must try to love all Christians and even non Christians and ultimately even the stupid atheists that I will confess to making my blood boil when I hear them advance their stupidity! Nevertheless the Gospels make it clear that we must love and to that end everything must bow. We do not know who goes to heaven or hell (apart from the above I mentioned previously) and whilst we can observe that wicked people perform wicked acts we are in no state to pass judgement on such-a-such person. The delight taken by many Christians in the death of such people often lacks generosity or understanding?

    There are unite a few things we simply do not agree on. I think there may be many more that we do? Whilst I have highlighted here the comments we do not agree on I should like to think that these are as I first stated a while ago at the start of the comments: i.e. one of intellectual collision rather than disobedience to grace.
    Always try to be of good Cheer Lionel, and think kindly of other Christians. It does not mean that we reject our Catholic faith but it should mean that we grow up into it.

  8. 1. Some interesting points raised.
    I will be as brief as possible because we both seem to have rather conflicting ideas about what is expected or asked of us in life.
    Heresy is about many things even about misunderstandings. We recall for example that in the early Church what became known as heresy was at first seen as a possible alternative to other versions. In his denial of Jesus’ equality with his father etc Arian proposed what was considered usual Roman practice that the Father was the head of the family etc. Only after Nicene and latter Councils was it finally declared anathema by what became orthodox views. The fact remains that what ended as denounced started as half orthodox view and indeed affected several saints that bent towards its logic. Also of course Luther and his anger at the Church of his day proved he was at the start correct and the Catholic Church was wrong to behave as it did. Pope John Paul 2nd conceded as much in St peters in Geneva. Heretical ideas may be finally mistaken but alas so has much of church history in the persecution of these people. Not much to boast about before the throne of God in the way that the church has often behaved towards some members of society. If heresy is a sin then so is pride and the wilful destruction of human life.

    Lionel: If heresy is a sin ?

    Theological discussions are sometimes tolerated within the catholic Church but often new ideas that are hard to digest or result in personal differences are blocked. Sometimes for many years but often such various ideas may resurface (alas often years later when the original thinker may be dead?) to hold sway and bring to life new paths for the Church.
    No sorry we disagree fundamentally on faith. I reject that it is certain. I know of no honest person that can say they have such a faith indeed if faith was certain it would not be faith at all. If we had the faith of a mustard seed we could command the mountains to move asunder etc. We are of little faith and of great doubt but that is our victory over sin and death because it is our smallness that draws down grace from heaven. (ala St Faustina etc) Our ability to commit heroic actions because of this “little faith” fragile and wanting though it may be, is the glory of the Church on earth before God.
    In raising the notion of love and dogma (my central point may have been misunderstood?) is that all dogma and all teaching and anything that is worth anything , natural or supernatural, everything that is or shall be or has been, everything of matter or of spirit can only prosper and live because of love. Love is the very nature of God himself and Love is finally what everything is about.

    The Pharisees at the time of Jesus (some of them anyway) had forgotten about Love and they were full of the law and its promises. They were after all the Children of Israel and had the promise of God that they were special. They believed that following ritual and law justified them and made them holy and above other sinful people. To them there is the rude awakening of the Condemnation of Jesus. Our Lord did not get angry because they followed the law but essentially that was all they had, they had no love in them and were useless to grace. When Jesus condemns such men he did so because they refused to understand notions such as mercy and compassion and refused to listen to his voice of peace given to sinners everywhere.
    If people entering the Church are lifted to Paradise what do we consider the Church is? It is not about bricks and mortar etc nor about great artistic heritage . . it is surely about the Body of Christ and in that many Christians partake. For example the Communion of the Greek and eastern Orthodox Church is absolutely valid in the Roman Church and many others are equal to this. In essence they remain in what we call the see of Rome and their sacraments etc are valid. Many protestants also believe and in the uk for example Pope Benedict has allowed special ordnances which accept that much of their office is acceptable, indeed baptism even if carried out by a heretic is full baptism and Christians accept this as absolute.

    Lionel: There are good things in other religions we have agreed here. However the religions are not paths to salvation.
    The baptism may be valid but the non Catholic needs to live the Gospel according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. Similarly the Sacraments of the Catholic Church are valid however if a Catholic dies in mortal sin, just one mortal sin, according to the Catechism then he is on the way to Eternal Death.

    There is always hope Lionel. Even when a person has died there is hope. We have the communion of saints and purgatory and the holy souls and the effect of prayer, good works and sacrifice which can we believe lighten a souls final move into paradise. There is always hope.

    Lionel:There is hope Sr.Faustina tells us as long as we are alive. After we die if we go to Hell then we are the slaves of the demons for all eternity.

    If a soul is damned and the Church does not have the ability or justice to make a claim on any individual as I had noted earlier then our prayers may be used by God as he sees fit etc.

    Lionel:Yes.

    BUT we are not allowed to imagine that non Catholics are damned etc because that is a sin in itself against Gods Justice and his Charity. Rather we should try and believe that God is about mercy and gentleness and our brethren (both other Christians and of other religions that may identify God in tradition and other form) are to be redeemed. That is not a point that is debated because it is central to a “Christian” and anything else is from the evil one and must be rejected.

    Lionel:It is the teaching of the Church before and after Vatican Council II that Catholic Faith and the baptism of water are needed by all mankind for salvation(to avoid Hell).

    Again I think we are in 100% disagreement alas. Suicide may be a mortal sin but in the modern church and its more kindly disposition we do not know the state of a soul. The qualifications for sin cannot be guaranteed as absolute. Sorry but I think you will find both clergy and hierarchy are more charitable towards this act then past ideas held.

    Lionel: Suicide is a mortal sin. If there is an exceptional case it would be known to God.In general suicide is a mortal sin in the Catholic Church.

    Incidentally the Church has always allowed for Original innocence because that is how God first created man and our journey through life is partly a return home to that state. In baptism we have original sin wiped out and that is why the Church has/had always taught that baptised children that die went straight to heaven; not because of original sins effect but because they were innocent. In recent times the belief in a state called Limbo has also been reviewed accordingly.

    Lionel:Fr.Matthew Fox O.P has been excommunicated for his teachings on this subject.

    I am aware of St Teresa and others that vividly described a vision of hell. I am not against any belief in hell as I have stated above previously but I am against the idea that a merciless God throws innocent people into it. The best description of Hell I know comes from the author C.S.lewis whom said that hell “was a door locked from the inside”.

    Lionel: God is not merciless. His mercy is available for all who ask it. The Holy Spirit is within each of us we were told last Sunday in the Second Reading.The Holy Spirit guides people to the Church. Then they have to choose.

    In what way do I assume that Mother Teresa rejects the teaching of the Catholic Church? I would politely but firmly remind you that I rather suggest that in her statement on love etc she was nearer to the catholic church than many others. That she was stating the importance of Love over everything which I contest is what I have tried to do in all the above. If it does not fit with the ideas that you hold of the Church then I am sorry but I have not stated anything which is not in the understanding of the Catholic Church today?

    Lionel:Love is not contradictor or proclaiming the teachings of the Church.

    We must try to love all Christians and even non Christians and ultimately even the stupid atheists that I will confess to making my blood boil when I hear them advance their stupidity! Nevertheless the Gospels make it clear that we must love and to that end everything must bow. We do not know who goes to heaven or hell (apart from the above I mentioned previously) and whilst we can observe that wicked people perform wicked acts we are in no state to pass judgement on such-a-such person. The delight taken by many Christians in the death of such people often lacks generosity or understanding?

    Lionel: Yes we need to love all people.
    There are unite a few things we simply do not agree on. I think there may be many more that we do? Whilst I have highlighted here the comments we do not agree on I should like to think that these are as I first stated a while ago at the start of the comments: i.e. one of intellectual collision rather than disobedience to grace.

    Lionel: Is it not disobedience to grace ?

    Always try to be of good Cheer Lionel, and think kindly of other Christians. It does not mean that we reject our Catholic faith but it should mean that we grow up into it.

    Lionel: I love other Christians and yet I am aware of their future.


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