Two ill considered papal acts: 1) Pope Francis’ bowing to a Muslim queen; 2) JPII’s kissing of the Koran

Both send the wrong message, diminish the Catholic faith and show a fundamental lack of respect for Jesus Christ, his Church and the Holy Office of the papacy.  Similarly offensive are the Pope’s visits to Jewish synagogues and support for Zionist organizations and causes. Why? Because none of the above are considered part of the People of God and all are clearly anti-Christ and anti-Catholic, according to New Testament biblical standards – no matter how some choose to misinterpret the words of Nostre Aetate:

1 John 2:20-29 But you have the unction from the Holy One and know all things. (21) I have not written to you as to them that know not the truth, but as to them that know it: and that no lie is of the truth. (22) Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father and the Son. (23) Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son hath the Father also.

(24) As for you, let that which you have heard from the beginning abide in you. If that abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning, you also shall abide in the Son and in the Father. (25) And this is the promise which he hath promised us, life everlasting. (26) These things have I written to you concerning them that seduce you.

(27) And as for you, let the unction, which you have received from him abide in you. And you have no need that any man teach you: but as his unction teacheth you of all things and is truth and is no lie. And as it hath taught you, abide in him. (28) And now, little children, abide in him, that when he shall appear we may have confidence and not be confounded by him at his coming. (29) If you know that he is just, know ye, that every one also who doth justice is born of him.

This new pope reminds me more and more of Barack Obama – and that’s not a good thing!

Text and photos

How Muslims interpret JPII kissing the Koran

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46 Comments

  1. “…ill-considered papal acts…”

    Any news today, Doug?

    • The news was all the Catholic websites that were cheering the pope’s latest exercise. Humility before God is one thing. Humility before apostates and enemies of the Catholic faith is a whole different matter.

      Doug

      • Like I asked: Any news today;-)

      • Mark,
        Is There Any News Today? NO, but doesn’t it make you SICK?
        I try to block it out!
        Yesterday, on The Five, a show on FNC, the question was posed, Who committed the greatest act this year? Dana Perino, an Evangelical, said, Pope Francis, with his gathering millions on a Beach in Brazil!
        Show-aright there the Ecumenism. IS WORKING!!!

  2. I will NEVER, get over the JPII “Kissing the Quran”….
    NO NEVER!
    Read the Muslim Blog! The reason The Dome Of The Rock, is Islam’s 2nd Holiest site is because that is where Ischmael, was going to be sacrificed by Abraham….not Isaac, according to the Holy Bible. When Islam prays, they turn their back from the Dome and face Mecca!
    Always remember 1 John 2:22!
    Those that do not believe that Christ is God are the AntiChrist!
    Why are we Kissing Up 2 AC?
    Makes no sense! A False Religion that mocks Christianity!
    ILL considered Papal Acts, is putting it mildly!

  3. Two points here but essentially pose the same idea; that the Popes John Paul 2nd and now Francis have in some way deserted the faith of Christ and bowed down before Juggernaut!

    Why and how?
    Well apparently John Paul kissed a Quran and Francis bowed to a Muslim?
    Where do I start to correct the hysteria over these acts? Let me try to reassert what a Catholic is?

    A Catholic is a person (here I am addressing Roman Catholics as opposed to other variants, orthodox or Anglican) that believes in the One true and Holy Apostolic Church given by Jesus whilst still he lived on earth to Peter and his descendants.
    This Roman Church is about the Gospels and Holy Writ and by its Faithful teaching and Councils and Sacramental grace the true pathway to the Forgiveness of Sins and Resurrection to Eternal Life.

    How does it exist in a multi cultural and religious world therefore?
    Well it grows in time which it understands to be the will of a God whom desires the Salvation of ALL PEOPLES regardless of colour, race, sex, orientation, creed. This Church is led by a Pope on earth whom the faithful follow as a doctrinal matter in grace.
    So why does a pope do the things that seem to have caused a rabid response that he must be dealing with antichristian regimes?
    Well in kissing the Quran, the pontiff is showing that in the tradition of a faith like Islam is a recognised religion and that Allah in the nature of his revelation is both Just and Good and Almighty and thereby has the attributes of the Father of Jesus Christ.
    C S Lewis showed a similar article in the creation of Aslan the lion in his Narnia Stories. Not until the Last Battle is Aslan revealed as a man but the idea is the same.
    In effect the followers of Islam if they follow Justice and lead good lives of good will towards men (mankind not simple gender so please don’t think I m being chauvinist) are Redeemable by Our Lord Jesus Christ as are all peoples of Good Will. The fact that they may not have believed in Jesus is countered by their good will and lives as such. This is not only supported by Council but by the statements of many saints and by Scripture in many mansions and Matthews Final judgement (our only Scriptural design to the Last Judgement)
    That in effect the hysterical burning of the Quran by some violent “Christian” elements is an act of Blasphemy and the pope is more than correct to humble himself before the Quran as a Book that inspires such a tradition of religion and toleration.
    Before some people demand that the Quran is like Islam a violent Religion and full of errors please do not bother. I am aware that some passages are misinterpreted. . just as they are in the BIBLE and even today cause Christians to war on each other.
    Yet the point the Pope makes is the same as the kissing of the feet of a beggar. Catholic Power must bend in humility and show that Christians have nothing to fear from Islam or from Judaism or any religion. It has much to be afraid however of its own history and the persecution of individuals, cultures or nations that it has claimed to be different and apart from its own sanctified (all to often sanctimonious) position.

    John Paul 2nd was always aware (coming from Eastern Europe) that the Church or some people within retain a “them and us” mentality which the Church had in the past in some places allowed to grip it and choke Christian Charity. The Great Pope wished to remind all peoples of Holiness and reinstall a sense of Christ compassionate, Christ persecuted for Right and Christ our brethren in us. That Christ remains our Merciful saviour and any understanding that hinders or blocks or curtails the notion of his infinite compassion on all people of good will is essentially to be removed. We shall not see Gods face in Paradise before these foolish elements have been extracted from our wills, minds, souls.

    The idea that Pope Francis bowed to a queen is bizarre! Quite frankly it may be an uneducated assumption because all monarchy is about the state not the person. Hence when the Australian republican prime minister refused to bow before Queen Elizabeth because she said she could not physically bend she was suitably denounced. She stupidly imagined herself equal to Monarchy and the representation of the state. Yet the monarchy is not simply the person of joe blogs but the idea of state so bowing is a legitimate act in royal circles. It is nothing about republican sentiment but about courtesy! In the USA it could well be the standing before a cloth of material which is the flag. It does not make the patriot an idiot if they salute the material because it is a representation of something other than its appearance. Well then!
    Furthermore Francis is proving to be not only a lovely pope he reminds us the faithful that we must “embrace” humility. This means that we do not grovel in our own unworthiness but give all glory, all honour and all power to God. It is time that every Catholic should turn to Christ as Saviour of the World and start to put our trust or even doubt into his merciful embrace.

    Quite absurd that anyone can assume that the Popes are becoming anti-Christ because of their desire to embrace all peoples. How else shall we learn respect for each other? and sadly humanity around this world has (and continues) to suffer so badly because of mean spirits that justify their behaviour behind walls of religious arrogance. In the Catholic Universal Church we (should) believe that Gods Gospel is essentially about Love and that must affect our self evaluation and identity otherwise it is as dead as the Pharisee that spouted creed over grace.

    • Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. (19) Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. (20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

      As far as I know, Jesus Christ has never modified or repudiated his “Great Commission”. Woe be to those who choose to do so, on their own initiative.

      Doug

      • You are absolutely correct Doug. I see no obvious disagreement however and as I stated above I agree souls are saved by the Christ Jesus. That is perfectly accepted.

        On the other hand Mathew as we know also states:
        “Lord when did we see you hungry or thirsty, a stranger or naked, sick or in prison and did not come to your help?” Then he will answer “I tell you solemnly in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these you neglected to do it to me” (Mat 25;44-46)
        Here we have the only Gospel account of The Final Judgement, our judgement. Interesting because Matthew was writing to the Jews and he does not include their creed.
        Again;
        In Luke (6:20-26) we have The Beatitudes so we encounter Our Lords blessing for the poor, hungry, mournful and persecuted for Christ. It is obvious again that Jesus does not accept the notion that only the Jews or any religious group are to be saved. Indeed he has come to bring salvation to the world and in Luke his benediction is for the world.

        There are numerous accounts in the Gospels about Christ accepting tribute from people other than good Jews; be they sinners, Romans or Samaritans. My point is obvious I hope but how does that rest with your own commentary above? Surely the final benediction at the Ascension is for Christ’s followers, his Church and faithful to come to him alone. Doesn’t this rule out all other religions and their beliefs?
        Answer NO, not necessarily. The early Church for example accepted many beliefs from the pagan world. Indeed Our “Roman” catholic church is full of pagan symbolism and iconography. Unlike Calvinism that rejects all such trappings as ungodly or sinful, the Roman Church delighted and still does in a Classical past. It accepts absolutely that salvation comes only through Jesus Christ but it accepts this occurs by “grace”.

        This grace may come through the Sacraments, Scripture or the Teaching of the Church. It may also come to people whom are ignorant of the Gospels by birth or geography etc. This comes about by good will inherent in all mankind and in all peoples. As the world has shrunk by communication and media etc the Church has come to understand that people of other faiths are accepted by our Lord.
        Firstly Non Catholics (the Church has always though sometimes grudgingly accepted the truth in other churches orthodox etc. These differ only in Authority primus of the Pope) and Protestants because of their understanding of the Scriptures. Pope Benedict 16 especially had great encouragement for the millions of protestants world wide that long for unity in a single Church.
        The Church by its teaching also recognises that Tradition is important in both individual and social beliefs. Therefore, the Church recognises that any person of good will – even outside the Christian faith- has the distinct possibility of Salvation. (this is won for them by Calvary but it means that countless non Christians are not damned for non belief)
        This is not because they worship a relative or comparable deity but lead good lives. The Church understands that God the Father is recognised by several virtues whatever his title/name. Hence Justice, Mercy, Kindness, gentleness, majesty, Goodness. .the list goes on but the point is that God the Father is present in the Worlds faithful traditions; even as he may be so in the Ancient Greek world.
        As The Beatitudes show along with Matthew, God loves us and neither desires us harm or anxiety over our salvation. This does not mean nor am I saying that all religions are the same. If however they are based on Love and show God as Love then we are not that far from His Kingdom.

      • There is no difference between the Jew and the Greek(Gentiles) for the same Lord over all, is rich upon all that call His name!
        Salvation came to the Jew first….the First Christians! C c.

      • “we are not that far from His Kingdom” … Actually, just one baptism away (per person). Salvation by any other means is deemed possible – but by no means promised – or very likely – outside of the Catholic Church – hence the cintinuing need for evangelization of all non-Christian people – including the Jews. 1900+ years of definitive church teaching weighs heavily against the post Vatican II modernists who have recreated God in their own liberal image, with no concern for sin and no particular standards of any kind – except “love”.

        Doug

      • Doug,
        Amen

    • Scampy22
      I don’t have time to respond to your Blog Post. I will NOT accept John Paul II kissing the UnHoly Book……Allah is Satan, in his book he is described as the Greatest of Decievers! Mohamad is his messenger…What’s that tell you about, The Prophet?
      Francis can bow down, as a gesture of respect to foreign dignitaries, but the Kissing of the Quoran, beyond the Realm!

      Where do you have the idea, that Islam is a Religion of Peace? Maybe, some copy of the Bible, in their Hadith and Quoran!

      This is Deceit, on Gods people! There are Muslims coming to Christ everyday!

      • Hello Cathy, thank you for your interest 🙂
        First the point about Greek is that St Paul commends the Greeks for acceptance of the Unknown God. Of course the Greeks were the Culture that everyone wanted to be at the time, Jews as well as Romans so the influence of Greece both before and after the incarnation is colossal.

        It is very hard to answer your question as you obviously dislike Islam and the Muslim. This may be because of a misunderstanding about the religion or a fuelled hatred of seeing Muslims burn the flag or jeer at American bodies?
        Islam is I attest a religion of peace and its adherents desire peace. That is despite the agreed rabid maniacs that believe they are justified in killing anyone they disapprove of etc. These individuals are not representative of Islam and are in fact against the religion and its deity. They share in common the Christians that kill and harm others in belief that they are doing Gods will. They are misinformed and even wicked and they are not Christian and do not serve Our Lord.
        Armed with the knowledge or possibility that most Muslims desire to live in peace and are in effect normal humanity and not gun/knife/machete wielding maniacs a start can be made to appreciate their culture/s.
        At a time that Europe was scientifically backward and even ignorant about much of the world, Muslims were in high culture. In astronomy, mathematics and Architecture they were vastly advanced over their hick European neighbours. Crusades and conflicts often resulting from economic pressures and fears led to mistrust and hatreds that still haunt our respective ideas. These are not to be retained and we as Christians must put aside the sword and attempt to rediscover our neighbour; not in a feeling of hatred, mistrust or anxiety. A shared common humanity is always a good place to start and Muslims are as willing to discover their Christian neighbours as we must be in them.
        We have much common ground to find with Islam. Muslims for example Honour Jesus and especially the Madonna. Not even the Jews do that! Muslims preach for mercy and traditionally believe that their God Allah is Almighty, One and All Just. (ie Good) Christians believe this about God also.
        In history the treatment of Muslims to Christians pilgrims to the Holy Places was generally far more liberal and kindly than the other way around. The Fall of Constantinople for example was a Just and Holy moment. The city under the Christians had become a den of thieves and was ripe for being reminded by God that it was for Gods Glory that mankind exists and not the other way around. In Spain Muslims brought with them agricultural techniques that are still the back bone of country life.
        If we are to assume as you suggest that Allah is Satan then the House does not stand? Satan rather detests Allah and Islam and would love to sow disquiet, anxiety, fear and hatred between people of good will. Satan would never have anything to do with Jesus and especially his mother. Satan in effect is about hatred but his religion would be evil and never survive the centuries. Evil is not allowed to continue unabated and by Gods Providence will consume itself quickly and with great fury. Satan in effect hates Justice, Mercy, Kindness and if he was the author of the Quran or the Bible then both books would never have lasted or flourished or brought so many people to live in peace.

        The pope action is thus both in humility before God and in a token of respect towards the sensibilities of many Islamic peoples. It is given as a sig that Christians shall not fear or detest their Muslim neighbour but see Jesus Christ in each of them. (see My reply to Doug and Mathews Gospel quote.)
        If we replace feelings of mistrust (yes I know that is easy to say and we must work on it . .but nobody said the cross was a light weight!) with a desire to Love and respect and honour of all our neighbours especially those that the pope so honours before us and shows us the way? then we shall stand bold and true before the throne of Jesus. I suspect that will be far more pleasing to Our Lord and will make our lives happier.
        Akin to the sentiment and words from The Robe, The way is never easy Cathy but it a way that good people must follow. I hope you find your way.

      • Sampy22,
        Oh, I have found my way…..that’s with Jesus Christ. I know more, but cannot say!
        People should pray for the Sons of Ischmael, that they will come to the Light, and depart from Darkness!
        Don’t be confused with their love of Mary, She is the most worshipped woman, with Fatima(the daughter of Mohamed) is Second! Even, with Our Lady, appearing in Fatima, Portugal….it still did not Convert Muslims to Catholicism!
        Not all Muslims are Jihadist, with the call to kill Infidels, and be martyred with the reward of Paradise and Seventy Virgins!
        There is no other promise of Eternal Life…because there is NO SAVIOUR!

  4. Cathy,
    It was a rhetorical statement and I hope you were not offended by the Quote from the Robe.It was not implied I hope that I was questioning your faith but rather trying to suggest a hope filled road to salvation. Always try to end on an upbeat comment!

    Not certain that being Catholic means we are saved? It should do but what is more important than the title is that we do the will of Our heavenly Father? I think this is best expressed in the notion of the Golden Rule and attempting to live good holy lives? It is not for us to presume to pass or guess final judgement of our neighbour. It is for us to pray for our neighbour and to hope that Our Saviour will redeem us. We cannot be certain but we can hope!
    If in Johns Gospel Jesus stresses that we should not be distressed and that his Fathers House has many rooms then we should take heart and try to believe that the Good Shepherd is all about Love. Period.

    In the lives of Saints such as Faustina, The Divine Mercy confirms that his Mercy is greater than human error and he saves even what we think is unsaveable and that anyone of a good heart and will can be saved. In the Life of Padre Pio there is always room for non catholics and even Non Christians and the kindly padre always welcomed them.
    Something we Catholics must be clear on is that anyone that calls upon The Madonna will be treated to saving grace no matter what their creed or life has been. The Mother Of Jesus (confirmed in the lives of many saints especially ones like John Vianney) is the Mother of Humanity and no call to her is EVER unheard or unheeded. Anyone that calls to Our Lady will be given grace and a constant cry to Her will certainly ensure Salvation as her Divine Son can not refuse her anything.
    So basically and lastly from me here, (thank goodness for that! a few people sigh! 🙂 ) Always be of Good cheer. Try to Love your neighbour and that means those people we may dislike or feel are about to be destroyed by an act of Judgement. Think rather of Gods mercy poured out for us all on the Cross and how that same Lord well understands what is in our hearts etc. If that is so? he will always show mercy and compassion to his children and his creatures. He neither desires to Judge us for our sins or confound us for our ignorance because he is Love and will redeem us despite our contrary attitude to his saving grace.

    • So do you believe that Muslims will be saved simply because they have a “soft spot” for the Virgin Mary?

      It is foolish to take chances with one’s salvation, so the only rational course of action – for everyone – is to become Catholic and to strive to live a good, Catholic life, availing one’s self of the full benefit of all the work, worship, sacraments and devotions of the Catholic Church – along with its’ great tradition of scholarly holiness – courtesy of the Holy Spirit. All other faiths – and all other paths to God – fail miserably, in comparison. This is the true ecumenical message that needs to be spread – and thoroughly explained – to every person – every hour of every day, all around the world – until Jesus Christ comes again, at the end of time.This is the authentic mission of every Catholic – and it has been sorely disregarded and ill served, with few exceptions – by the mealy-mouth churchmen of the last 50 years.

      Doug

    • Scampy22,
      God is Love!
      What do you think about Romans…..If thou should confess with thy mouth, and believe in thy heart that God has been risen from the dead….thou shall be Saved?
      Whosoever shall believe in the Lord…shall be Saved?
      Do you think Muslims, Hindus, and Budhist qualify?

      Sorry for my paraphrasing!
      We cannot cherry pick Gods will, he makes it clear in Scripture!
      Just-because you are good, and playing by the Golden Rule, does not grant you Salvation! The only way to the Father is Through he Son( Christ Jesus!!!)
      1John 2;22
      Many Blessings.
      Cathy

  5. Doug,
    I believe that Muslims, jews, atheists, pagans, hindus, whatever may be saved by the act of Calvary etc. etc.
    I do not believe that we have any ability whatsoever to save ourselves and so we can not take chances with our own salvation or otherwise. Whom is Saved depends upon Gods sovereign power only.
    My reference to our Lady was to show that Catholics should in particular appreciate her ability to bring salvation to even souls that have died in apparent sin. There are many cases in the lives of Saints that show Our Ladys grace and goodness in redemption of a soul by her son despite what others assume of lawful redemption because of her intervention.
    I am afraid I know of no person that is alive whom is a “good Catholic” and does not fail miserably at the faith. I know of Saints etc but to a person they are always failures in the faith by their own sin. The fact the Church recognises some sanctity is not because they have done anything rather because they have responded heroically to Christs call to pick up their cross.
    If I understood that Salvation ONLY came through the Catholic faith I would hardly have read the Scriptures or understood the Spirit of the Gospels. Indeed I would be in central denial of the articles of the faith and what the Holy See accepts or has ever done so. If I believed such a horrible thing I would be most concerned that all people are on the road to perdition as nobody is a good catholic and all fail again and again.

    Cathy,
    Just a short response.
    !. The only way to the Father is through the SON. Agreed. But there are lots of ways to God. Hence the Jewish people etc and People of God.
    2.If you are not good and do not believe or attempt to live by the Golden Rule then as Matthew warns you will be damned. Whatever your Lip proclaims. .even LORD LORD. That will not give salvation at all. Catholics are not redeemed by any prayer or word or deed that does not centre on Love. Hence unless you welcome Paradise like a child you shall not enter it.
    Nowhere in the faith do we meet people that are barred from Salvation on masse. That is because it is not from God.

    Hope that helps make what I think clear? 🙂

    • The grace of God – freely bestowed on us sinners – which calls us to conversion, baptism and full, faithful, active membership in the Catholic Church – is the normative way – God’s preferred way – for people to be saved. Anything else is so unlikely and frought with eternal jeopardy as to be almost totally unreliable. Original sin separates every natural man from Heaven, unless and until the above mentioned conversion – or some other even greater miracle – occurs.

      Doug

    • Scampy2,
      The ultimate answer for The Holy God , for Salvation is:

      The Precious Blood of Jesus Christ for FORGIVENESS.
      Without the Shedding of Blood there is no Remission of sin! Life is in the Blood!
      Christ redeemed us for Salvation!
      The Sinless became Our Sin!
      He is the Only Way!
      The Unblemished Lamb of God!

      As in 1John 2:2, it’s Christ for Salvation!
      Pure and Simple, from Genesis to Revelation!
      His Precious Blood, is the Key to Eternal Life!

  6. Scampy22,
    Just a short response to you….There is Not Many Ways To GET To God! He is the WAY, The Truth, and the Life! If you believe in God,The True God, you must believe in the Son/Christ Jesus! Salvation comes only through God, by making his Son die for Our Sins, the Sinless One became our Sin and Redeemed the sinner (the Perfect Lamb of God!)
    This is New Age Talk, to believe there is ANY OTHER WAY!
    Christ started the Great Commission, to spread the Gospel, throughout the World……and it’s been happening for 2000 years, under great risk, in some nations. On Sept 3 1955, the Greek Orthodox, were publicaly defiled and killed in the Great Riot of Istanbuhl, by Muslims. More recently, in Egypt, The Coptic Christians have been targeted by the Muslim Brotherhood. In North Korea, they have put people in Death Camps, that practice Christianity, in Home Churches! The Apostles died Cruel Deaths, to start spreading the Gospel….they had Only One Mission!
    Love is Good, but it doesn’t SAVE You!

    • Cathy,
      No No No! 🙂
      Firstly the Catholic Church for what its worth has always accepted that Salvation comes through Jesus Christ but and is a BIG BUT this comes to any person of Good will that desires to live a good life according to understood precepts. (justice and mercy and charity and providence) by Divine Providence and/or his Grace as God sees fit to bestow it. That the Faithful are given the Sacraments etc is for their good but does not exclude the ignorant or members of faiths that require them to live good lives. Nor does it ensure that the faithful are saved by their faith. That is Lutheran Protestant!
      The notion that Catholics are saved and others are sent to eternal damnation is one of the most unchristian and monsterous ideas I have heard! Do you really suppose that Jesus will allow children for example to be destroyed thus? What sort of a God do we believe in! I renounce such a notion as diabolical and unworthy of any Christian intellect.
      Its not new age lunacy to believe that God is about Love it is Christian and correct.
      Indeed Love is the ONLY thing that will save you! There is nothing .. it is important this so I stress again NOTHING that can save you without Love. Love surpasses all other considerations, Love is the very HEART of Our Saviour Jesus Christ. As Jesus points out God is LOVE. There is no way anybody is saved without Love and nobody doing anything at all, any faith any act any deed, any prayer is useless without Love.
      Whilst the Church is and has been persecuted terribly so have many people for many reasons. I cant help recall that Catholics for example (or supposedly good Catholics that attended mass etc) across Eastern Europe were implicated in the murder of thousands of jews, gypsey’s and people of different attitude/expectations during the second world war. Apparently the Catholic World has much to beat its breast over and do penance for! Fortunately for us all God is a God of Love and we are left with hope in the faith that should make us glad but not just for ourselves!

      • Scampy2,
        I do not know what to say to you! Johns Gospel spells out “That God is Love” and you MUSThave Love to be conformed to him! BUT …. you Must Believe in HIM, who was sent by the Father, to be The Lamb Of God! God takes Mercy, on the young, before knowledge of Truth and the Ignorant! God chooses Who, he saves and gives, through his grace “Everlasting Life!”
        We cannot Presume, what he does, his Ways Are Higher Than our Ways…..We cannot do Anything without Him!
        Scripture tells us: Christ has Redeemed us through our sin and now we can reconcile with an All Holy God! We were once, slaves of sin and now we have been bought by the Precious Blood- propitiation on Calvary!
        The ONLY way to the Father, is through his Son!
        We can only Hope, He grants Mercy, through his Grace to Unbelievers….like Baptism of Desire! I feel for the people, who were knowledgable of the Truth and passed it by, to encounter the Wrath of God! It’s not how good you are, it’s about His Goodness and Love!
        Cathy

      • The mere desire to do good doesn’t cut it. The currency of Heaven is grace. Grace engenders faith, hope and charity and the purpose of the Catholic Church is to convert sinful men into adopted children of God, co-heirs with Jesus Christ, to the Kingdom of Heaven. Sins committed in this life typically need to be forgiven during this life – and the only sure and certain way to receive absolution from sin is first, via baptism and then, through the sacrament of reconciliation. Nothing less than holy will be permitted to enter Heaven – and the only sure path to holiness is through baptism and all the other sacraments – which were personally instituted by Jesus Christ for that express purpose – and faith in Jesus Christ, himself. Then there’s the matter of divine judgment. Jesus Christ alone will judge who is worthy of Heaven. Who is he more likely to welcome – a suitably repentant and grateful adopted child, steeped in grace – or an unrepentant stranger, totally absent of grace, who – despite constant invitations – never took the time to seek him out? God is no fool. Neither is he a “pushover”.
        Jesus founded the Catholic Church as the ordinary means of salvation for all, and while salvation outside the Catholic church is possible – such is certainly not the “norm”. It’s more like a great miracle – and miracles are known to be very rare! Now, if I’m wrong about all this, everything should still end up OK. But if you’re wrong, a lot of people are going to end up in hell, wondering why you didn’t tell them the whole truth about their salvation. Can anyone afford to take their salvation for granted? Obviously not. Hence, the need for “official” membership in the Catholic Church and the justification for our continuing efforts at evangelizing people of all nations (not just select groups).

        Doug

      • That’s right Doug!
        Evangelizing, and bringing All to Christ and OUT of Fase Religions, that do not believe in the Son!
        Cathy

        God does Not Want Anyone To Go To Hell! You have to believe in Christ!

  7. Doug and Cathy
    I really do not understand what you guys are talking about?
    Firstly, Jesus did not found the Catholic Church. The Church is Universal which means that it is like the Incarnation a divine revelation of Gods Goodness but the Church as we understand it today is born at Pentecost with the Coming of the Holy Spirit.
    The charge given primus – first to Peter whilst Jesus lived was that it would stand against Hell etc. The committal at the Ascension is given to all the Apostles and others at that moment as to us also.
    The faith from Rome that Catholics adhere to is that given down the ages and through the pope as rightful successor of Peter thus primus Bishop. By Scripture and Tradition and the teachings and councils and saintly revelations, sacraments etc to the Church today – yes that is a POST VATCAN 2 Church! – presents a state that souls should daily aspire to.

    This includes the acceptance of Church teaching and the acceptance of Holy Writ; ie Scriptures as presented by the Bishops and Tradition.
    It does not allow for individual private revelation as beyond these graces. It does however allow for Divine Providence!

    The sacraments are a visible sign of an inward grace. The sacrament of Baptism washes away all stain of Origial Sin and places the Christian believer on a path to accept the other Sacraments in accordance with what the Church teaches.
    All these are matters of Faith. As such they resemble and bring souls nearer to God in the Revelation of his Incarnate Son through the Love of his Divine Spirit.

    However I am at a loss to understand the heretical presumption it seems to me about God as Love.
    The Church always and at every moment understands that God in his Sacred Life and Spirit and Divinity is LOVE. That is the base of all Christian thinking. There is nothing absolutely Nothing that can interrupt, neglect or take away from this central and core element of Christianity. It is a matter of Doctrine that God so loved the World that he gave his only to be Our Saviour! Anything else that denies Gods Love is anathema!

    So how do we encounter some scriptural comments by St John as Cathy evokes? Well belief is important but belief in what? Who is this deity that is presented? It looks as if you are suggesting that when we believe he can do this or that as God then we shall fear him and then Love him? That is not what the Church suggests or desires us to do. The point I raise about Providence is that God saves sinners as he wills and as Doug Points out. . it requires the sinner to be responsive and contrite. Yet if we are so obsessed with salvation personal or otherwise and can not think of anything else then we have misunderstood the Gospels which are Good News .The Good News is that God is Love! God Loves us and our Judgement is before and about Love.
    The point I make is that we shall not be judged by a tyrant nor shall we be judged by a head teacher with a cane in hand ready to thrash us for our wickedness. Nor shall we be judged by an uncaring parent nor a almighty king that knows nothing of our state whatever that is when we go to him. We will be judged absolutely by Love!
    If a soul is in hell it did not go there because it was sent but because it chose to flee Love.
    It has always been about Love.
    If we find ourselves in Paradise one day (though obviously it is in eternity so day is not actual but still language bla bla) we shall not have any other virtue because they are no longer required. So like the angels we do not require Hope, Faith, prudence . . .etc BUT we shall always have LOVE.

    I am sorry to beat the drum about it but there is no other concern that is so glorious or so true or so wise or so Christian. Withouth that one thing we are in hell already and with it we cannot ever go there.

    That is why the Catholic Church accepts that although evangelisation is good it is finally not the full answer. Nothing answers all our problems/question except love.
    For this reason The Catholic Church in its wisdom allows for three statements of Salvation because it recognises Divine Providence (born in Love).
    1. The Faithful by use of Sacramental grace and Scripture etc
    2. The members of other Faiths, Our Protestant brethren etc by belief in the Name of Jesus and by their acknowledged Baptism etc.
    3.Peoples of Other Faiths that aspire to do good and are of good will, whether they have heard of Christ or not.

    These are all redeemed by potential and by providence and because God Desires it so. They are redeemed by Love.
    The notion that some Christians may be surprised or insulted by others salvation is foolish and against the Love they must hold. Again in Scripture it is akin to the workers in the field receiving the same pay regardless of the time they arrived. The contract is made.

    So Doug and Cathy, I hope this statement makes it clear where I am coming from because I do not understand where you are? 🙂
    I expect we have just moved on parallel lines but I do suspect that because of the importance of the issue we are moving at different speeds! God Bless you Both.

    • If salvation were automatic and love trumped all, there would have been no need for the church. Jesus Christ founded the church the moment his heart was pierced, while he was hanging dead on the cross. From the Catechism: 766 The Church is born primarily of Christ’s total self-giving for our salvation, anticipated in the institution of the Eucharist and fulfilled on the cross. “The origin and growth of the Church are symbolized by the blood and water which flowed from the open side of the crucified Jesus.” “For it was from the side of Christ as he slept the sleep of death upon the cross that there came forth the ‘wondrous sacrament of the whole Church.'” As Eve was formed from the sleeping Adam’s side, so the Church was born from the pierced heart of Christ hanging dead on the cross.

      God bless you, too!

      Doug

    • Scampy22,
      You will see in God breathed, Inspired scripture, that the Good News of the Gospel’s is :
      God’s Power unto Salvation!!!
      I am not embarrassed, of the Gospel of Christ!
      Salvation, Salvation Salvation
      His Sinless Death and Resurrection, is Everything!
      Our Mortal Lives are just the beginning of Life, we have been adopted, as Children of God, joint heirs with Christ, and thus, we are able to call out to the Father…..Abba!
      Can a Hindu, enjoy His Word of Promise? Without acceptance of Christ. Think what you like, my friend, I will believe in the Son, a surer way to the Almighty Father!
      Who is the Bride of Christ and who is the Temple of God?

    • “Firstly, Jesus did not found the Catholic Church.”

      Huh?

      “For thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build My Church>/i>.”

      • Oops on the italics coding.

  8. Probably the longest debated article on Doug’s site! 🙂

    Alas none seem to understand my point.
    Again:-
    I believe you are saved by Jesus Christ! Period.
    Along with the Church!
    I also believe that “People of Other Faiths” of “Good will” may be saved by Jesus Christ! Period.
    Along with the Church!

    Also in answer to Cathys question of Johns Gospel, just back from Church where the Gospel from Luke 14 was about “If any man comes to me without hating his father, mother, wife, children .. . .he cannot be my disciple”
    So was Our lords advocating hatred and the breach of Gods Commandments? No! He was as pointed out to us by our lovely Priest stressing the deep difference between humanity and the Wisdom/knowledge of God. Point? Well the Gospels can be quoted all the time and we must decipher their meaning according to what else we understand and know. Prudence is underrated indeed.

    Doug and Mark
    Point to the fact that I suggested Christ did not found the Church. This is my fault but it is misunderstood I think. I was not relaying that Christ did not create the Church that is obvious to any Christian but I was suggesting the timing.
    In one sense God creates or first reveals the Church (his bride) in Genesis with the Woman and her son against the serpent. In another sense for Christians at Christmas with his Incarnation which literally changes the Cosmos and alters the way things are to be seen from that moment. In his passion he offers himself for his Church in Gethsemane and at his Last supper he installs his Church with his grace and divinity. On the cross he manifests its reality and at his resurrection he gives it eternal Life. In his Ascension he gives it a final commendation before his return at the end of time.
    It remains however the generally accepted opinion that the Church its earthly semblance, body and group is created or made manifest at Pentecost. On this date and at this time the Church understands the Spirit of Life, The Holy Spirit descended and gave it the spur it would need to become the Living Body. It is only the Holy Spirit that gives Life and it is his presence that allows it to explode into the world in the fullness of a birth.
    Lastly St Peter as I say was Primus Bishop and today his lawful successors are Primus! Would that many would accept that fact but apparently even in the Catholic Church there are some whom boast or even heretical bishops that would deny that fact! Woe unto them!

    Lastly Doug, Love is essential to Salvation. The Church has always accepted this as St Paul also clarifies “without Love I am the Clashing of symbols” which means I am nought, The Church fully accepts the total superiority of Love in all things. There is no salvation possible without Love! You are not saved by going to Church, receiving the sacraments, saying the rosary, praying long and hard or by going and moving mountains by the power of your faith. This will be useless to you and will only end in catastrophe if we do not first and foremost have Love.
    The crucifixion indeed of Our lord means nothing at all without Love. Unless we understand that point we understand nothing at all! Jesus was born, his ministry and his passion, his death and resurrection, his ascension and his glory are all about Love. This fact cannot be debated because it is a fundamental to Christian Life and faith itself. Literally all the saints bar none and all the lives of good people can only hope for redemption if they love. That is not the least of the reasons why the entire law, that is everything in Gods plan for his children is about/comes from Love.

    • Scampy22,
      Good message on. ❤
      Salvation, is determined by God Alone, nothing we can do will satisfy the Justice of God! In his Law, he speaks of love, Brotherly Love and Love for Him! These 2 commands were exhorted by Jesus himself. Pretty Important Requests!?!?!

    • So … how does telling non-Christians they do not need to be Catholic, when we know that outside the church there is no salvation – and so abandoning many of them to Hell – prove our love for Jesus Christ – or our neighbor? Do we presume to know the mind of God better today than those who walked the earth with him? If so, the apostles could have safely stayed at home, rather than giving their lives carrying out Christ’s “Great Commission” (a commission which has NEVER been revoked by God). Something here doesn’t add up. Either the guys running the church were wrong then, or the guys running the church are wrong now. Which is it?

      Doug

      • I GO with the Apostles, that gave their LIVES for God!!!
        The Same yesterday, today, and 4/ever!
        The Church is the Bride of Christ….Christ is coming back for her!

      • “Do we presume to know the mind of God better today than those who walked the earth with him?”

        Good question. An associate paster told me earlier of a nun of his order who “led” a decade of a public rosary today. She reportedly began thusly: “Our father, and mother (my emphasis), who art in Heaven…”

        Obviously, this individual knows the mind of God better than the Son of God Himself.

  9. I am sorry for what I write here but I simply find it is so important that one must do so;regardless.

    What exactly is the Church? If we believe that only Catholics are saved then we fail to appreciate either its teaching or its mission about Love thy neighbour!
    When Mother Teresa went onto the street she did not ask or look or attend only Catholics. Love is what she expressed and so she took all – thats everybody into her clinic hospitals. She well knew that God loved them and so she tried everything in her mortal power to love them also. Hindu or atheist or Catholic. It was not required to ask their creed but it was required to Love them. The mission of the Church is to teach all peoples about Jesus Christ whom is LOVE. It is to show them Love and to give them Love. It well understands that they are neither damned nor unloved by God rather they are redeemable whether they are Catholics or not!
    It is not true now or EVER thats is EVER, that a non Catholic is damned. That is rubbish and quite bizarre that it is implied here? All recent saints such as
    Saint Pio, Bosco, Faustina, Theresa etc agree that God saves any person thus and not simply because as a Catholic that can spout out Lord Lord!
    The notion that their is no salvation outside the Catholic Church is thus a throw back to when it was presumed that only Catholics were saved. That idea was in error and has today been wiped clear off the Christian radar!. HOWEVER it is held today that because we understand that the Church is a Universal body and that it allows for the best possible Salvation of the faithful. As a universal church it understands grace is inclusive so whilst it is best for sinful man to go directly to God our loving Father it understands that God may also by tradition be in spirit in other belief systems.. But a positive is not a negative automatically and so in its wisdom the Catholic Church as I have said ACCEPTS THAT SALVATION IS GIVEN THROUGH GRACE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST AND THIS GRACE MAY EXTEND TO PEOPLE OF GOOD WILL OF OTHER FAITHS!
    This is a matter of theological acceptance and Christian hope. Hence God remains in the Worship of the Jews and he may be found elsewhere such as in Islam or Hindu or other traditions. Anyone saved in these faiths by God because they were people of good will are saved not by belief in their deity but by the grace won for us all by Jesus Christ. The Salvation of the Catholic Church extends to all humanity thus and that is why all peoples may be saved by God. It does not deny Christ it recognises that Christ is almighty and Good and desires the salvation of all sinners everywhere. It acknowledges that Jesus Christ loves us all and that is what we mean when we say the Gospel is Good news.

    The Apostolic Mission was thus initially a Jewish one. Yet it is clear from the early Great Church that God held no favourites but anyone that did his will was acceptable and the Jews were not to hold a monopoly of the Grace of Christ Jesus! From St Paul we understand that grace was available to all peoples won for sinners by Jesus. It should be noted that the early Church was surrounded by other local churches and some empire wide such as Gnostics that held salvation was only available to the few. This was contrary to the will of God yet these churches continued to exist into the fourth century or mutate beyond that.
    The mission of the Apostles was to teach the Good news of Salvation which essentially boiled down to the Notion that God as in the Person of Jesus (finally endorsed at Nicene)was about Love. By this Love he had come into the world and as incarnate man had redeemed it by his passion and resurrection. That all peoples finally no matter their creed could be redeemed by this Love and that Jesus was hence the way the truth and the Life.
    As the Church grew in power and acceptance and authority so it accepted that Jesus was actually God of same substance. Over the centuries it has debated many of its beliefs and these are changed or ratified by itself as time or revelation confirm.
    One thing however has not changed and will not change. That is the Salvation of people by the God of Love. That redemption of souls is by Love and through Love. It does not mean that Apostolic mission is countered nor misunderstood. It simply means that everything ..again that is EVERYRTHING that is of God or comes from God is essentially about Love.
    Satan knows Jesus is God but it will not save him. The difference is Love. Faith alone is utterly worthless and to stand up and proclaim oneself a saved Catholic with little regard for ones neighbour or any sense of what Love must mean about such nonsense is ridiculous! To think one is saved because of the Law is to repeat the damned Phariseen comments to Our Lord. It is unacceptable and profane.

    • Scampy2
      I want you to read 1John 4:3.
      This states again, that anyone that confesses Jesus, is NOT the Lord, is the Spirit of AntiChrist!
      John and Paul knew in Early Christianity, there were those who were not believers, such as Gnostics. Pagan beliefs were very strong, and mixing with Christianity!
      Mother Theresa, with her abundant Love and Compassion, cared for All Humans, reguarless of Religion. Her last letters, released by the Vatican, showed her emptiness and how she sometimes felt alone. This was quite disturbing, to people who read it. She felt like she needed to suffer, just as Christ, went to Rome and had an Operation without anesthesia ( Didn’t Christ suffer, for us, as the Holy Lamb of God?)
      She was a great lady and accomplished what God wants from his people : Justice, Compassion, and Mercy!
      Do Catholics think they have the Fullness of Salvation, as the Great Universal Church? I have to look into this, but as 1John 4:3 states Belief in Christ Jesus is Paramont and it Romans Belief is essential for Salvation! So Religions that Don’t believe that Christ is God…there is no Salvation…..maybe 72 Virgins and reincarnation, as a goat! Or maybe you become a god. :). NOT!
      Christ, is the ONLY WAY to Salvation!

      • Cathy
        I don’t know where but on one of these blogs I replied to your quotation about John from yesterdays Gospels which here were from Luke 14;25-28. On the face of it seems to be in denial of The 5th Commandment and just about every other godly tenet? We must use Prudence however and come to understand that Gods ways are not our ways. Hope that is clear?
        The early Church was like all early evangelical forces on a world wide mission to convert as many people as possible as quickly as possible. There is good reason to suppose that St Paul and his contemporaries initially considered Jesus second coming in their own life times. There is a suggestion that many Catholic Saints and martyrs were in fact followers of some of the local churches and beliefs and later absorbed into Catholic iconography. St Augustine was for much of his life one such persn that did convert to Orthodox Catholic thinking after meeting St Ambrose in Milan etc. Indeed by the start of the Fourth century many Christians desired a quick conversion over the practicalities and with Constantine’s slow conversion the court and much of the Roman world followed suite. This led later to a charge of Ungodliness in such swift conversions and accusations of a Pagan court with a Christian title. Ironic as many Christian and many Roman catholic ideas, icons and beliefs are founded in the Classical and pagan world. This is a source of delight for Catholics although it was later a charge against it by extreme Protestant theorists.
        You are correct Mother Teresa suffered greatly from extreme doubts . .I do not know however of any saint that is not true about! The special point of her case is that it is so recent and therefore incurs great chatter amongst some commentators but really her doubts are quite normal and to be expected in any sanctified life.

        You still seem to be at cross purposes with me over salvation. I restate it and hope it becomes a little clearer? Salvation comes through Jesus Christ and his Church. Jesus is the son of God and Our Lord. He is also about Love and this means he so loved the world he became incarnate to redeem it.
        Now if he so loved us all then it is not unreasonable to assume he wishes to save the world. The majority of people etc are intended to be redeemed by his cross. First the faithful are redeemed (possibly if they are to be saved, some Catholics may be damned etc) by Mother Church, its sacramenst and Tradition and Scripture etc etc etc.
        But today we also believe that Christ saves other Christians – such as Orthodox or Coptic etc that are in the See of Rome ie they are as old as the Roman Church and hold its traditions etc. Also Protestants that have Scripture and Confess Jesus as Lord are Saveable.
        Lastly the Church in a wide world believes as all good catholics should also do, that Jesus passion etc saved people whom were unable to know about God through no fault of their own. This is because God is Good and desires them too to be redeemed. Logic moves this so; That People of Other Faiths and people of Good will are redeemed (possible because of Divine Mercy etc and the fact that God is not unjust or tyrannical and holds his children all his children in his tender mercy)

        We must not assume that other religions belief in Heaven is incorrect? St Pio told his enquirers that we cannot imagine Heaven because we do not understand eternal joy. Point is that some people think Heaven is like stars and other like gardens and others like landscapes of untold spectacular vistas. Whatever we imagine Heaven is like we only imagine it. One belief system in Paradise is pretty much like another’s.
        Reincarnation for all Christians is a heresy and should be rejected because it fails to understand the nature of this one time existence properly.

      • Scampy22,
        In John 3:17 God did not send his Son to Condemn the World, but to Save It!
        It is very apparent, that God wants to save His Creation.
        He says in Romans…Therefore being justified through faith, We Have Peace With God. W e have to Reconcile with an All Holy God, through Our Lord, Jesus Christ! There is a scripture that makes allowances, for the ignorant, I recall in memory., I’ll try to find!
        For most humans, in this time, there is awareness, of Jesus! If you have the Knowledge of Truth and rebel against God, the Wrath of God, is upon you!
        There is only One God, and One Son, and One Holy Spirit!

      • Acts 17:30 God winks, at their IGNORANCE!
        How many ppl…only God knows!

  10. Yes as Luke 10;25-29 😀

    • Scampy22,
      Yes, The Good Samaritan, incorporates, Love the Lord and Love your Neighbor! What are we do do with Have no Fellowship, with the Fruits of Darkness, but expose them-Ephesians 5:11?
      We have Salvation ,if we in fact, show compassion, mercy and justice to our fellow man and love God (the Real God!)
      Others, of the AC Spirit, will Not Be Saved, to have Eternal Life, but as Christians, We Love The LOST! & Try to set them, on the Path to REPENT!
      Have a Day Of Joy.
      Cathy
      To be continued…. 🙂

      • Yes Cathy, we however must also use our “informed” Conscience and logic rationale to come to the Faith otherwise Faith will become a scourge for our backs rather than the way to God.
        It is and has always been a teaching of the Faith of the Catholic Church that God in Jesus Christ will save whomever he desires by his own love and design. We see Divine Providence for example working in the lives of many people and they are by their lives often “Heroic”. That is they lead sanctified lives.
        It is up to sinners to repent but the Catholic Church has always allowed that depending upon the sin (sins are of different danger and mortal sins are not the same as venial ones) and life of the Sinner, Salvation is obtainable by the Love and Design of Gods mercy etc.
        We shall have no truck with darkness and we should not allow sin to hinder or corrupt our faithfulness. That all said we also recognise that we are sinners and sin may well triumph in our lives. It is not for us to presume judgement on others or upon ourselves but it is something we should try to correct in repentance.
        We recall Padre Pio’s sister that turned from the Catholic Church for example and lived a openly immoral life. Pio always however treated her as somebody loved and redeemed by Christ and the beautiful soul of the saintly Capuchin never held her in anything other than sweetest regard. He knew that she had her fate but he also trusted that despite herself he would see her in Paradise. The point of this is that we must not imagine that such a person is bad or immoral and presume we are higher in grace than they.
        We “hope” to be saved Cathy but we do not know that it is assured for ourselves. If we live according to the Gospels desires then we would be saved but I think we fall short of such goals. Indeed that is why the Church asks in the mass that God “should not consider what WE TRULY DESERVE but . .” think of Christ’s faithfulness.
        I do not see that Christians are saved by their faith or Muslims, Jews etc damned by theirs. That is not a very Christian way to think although some radical evangelical protestants (that should know better) do say that kind of thing. They are very much mistaken because they simply do not understand about Gods Love! The Catholic Church in its Faithfulness and teachings has never said such a terrible thing and it is repudiated by the Fathers and the modern Councils decrees.

        Quite frankly I cannot understand the assumption that because a statement in Scripture (which is inevitably countered elsewhere as it is a collection of Books for all seasons etc) can nullify our own human sense of Justice or Mercy? The very idea that innocent people that lead good lives but hold a different religious belief system can be condemned into eternal darkness with Satan etc because of their creed is horrible. As I point out at the start of this very long on-going discourse that concept is not reflected In Matthews Gospel of the Last Judgement (the only such one on the subject of our final judgement in Scripture) where creed is distinctly absent!

  11. Thought I’d add a meaningless comment here in case 44 were needed to break a Doug Lawrence blog record.

    • Wel, I think that I will make the 45th comment, because I am FUMING aboutt the Popes very vocal proclamation: atheist go to Heaven…if they have a conscience! This is not only against Catholic Doctrine, but is against Biblical Doctrine!
      Not only is he winning False Religions but people who detest Religion! This is beyond Ecumenism, this is………

      • Don’t look now, Doug and scampy22, but I think Cathy has gone all catalytic on us.


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