Far from a human race that is presumed innocent or essentially saved, the Council Fathers see a world in which salvation is neither assured nor easy. It is a world in which, “very often,” rejection of Christ has been a reality, is still possible, and is a main reason for Christian missions. Indeed, the Council also warned about the severe judgment falling on Catholics who do not persist in charity and faithfulness.
The Council’s “optimism,” Martin rightly notes, is about the possibility of salvation outside of the Church, not the probability that everybody inside or outside it will be saved.
The Council doesn’t give odds on this question or tell us whether Hell is densely populated or not, nor does Martin attempt to do so. But he notes that the “very often” is attached to the negative possibility. In a chapter examining the scriptural references in LG 16 he demonstrates that this bad news is indeed biblical.
Editor’s note: It’s also due to the fact that since the end of Vatican II – priests, bishops – and even popes – have no longer been at all certain about the validity or applicability of the settled teachings of the Catholic Church – nor have they been unified and consistent in their efforts to pass along the full, complete and traditional Catholic faith to others. In fact, just the opposite has been true!
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Doug Lawrence's Catholic Site 
I can think of at least one person who seems to wish Hell’s population to increase: not necessarily with people who reject Christ, but surely with people who reject the depredations heaped upon the Church by Vatican II.
Meanwhile, I am also—sadly—acquainted with people who would apparently be disappointed if Hell’s population did not increase substantially with the deceased who embraced the council and its liturgical “legacy,” and chose to follow both without question or doubt.
I would suggest that members of these opposing camps look to themselves and their own salvation first, before making predictions or wishes about the kind of Judgment that might await others.
The entire issue is not correct and anybody with even a rudimentary understanding of the Faith would note that the Catholic Church (unlike the breakaways that are so common) led by the Pope and Bishops etc does not express any individuals outcome in eternity.
It is true that through out the 19 and 20th centurys Saints such as John Vianney, John Bosco, Pio, Faustina etc have expressed that whilst Hell is a reality it is not certain nor unduly full of people par se because Almighty God desires the Salvation of Mankind and by his Mercy and Love has given humanity his Son to be its redeemer.
Vatican 2 as I am constantly having to remind some commentators here in its Light of The Gentiles merely restated what the Doctors and Fathers of the Church have ALWAYS expressed, this despite some schismatic bishops suggesting otherwise.
Any person with an atom of intelligence will thereby understand that the Modern (post V2) Catholic Church is still the Holy and Apostolic Church it has always been and the notion of Heaven and Hell still stand; the point being that the Church today is also more ready to be Compassionate and kindly towards the people that have traditionally feared going to hell above their love of God.
Scampy22,
Have you read John 3:18 Paraphrased: Who that believes in Christ is Not Condemned and he who does Not believe in Christ is Condemned!
With my small, microscopic atom of intelligence, I say, It sounds like Hell to me,,,,,,,This Condemnation!
IiMO, it does not sound like Paradise!
I saw a YouTube, where a Priest, in one of the Churches in Rome , said he was basically a Hindu, and he said it didn’t matter, “We all go to the same place!”
What?
Matthew 7…. Many go through the WIDE GATE = Condemned!
Our Lord and God LOVES us, and doesn’t want to see any of us Perish and not see Eternal Life. He is a Holy God and demands JUSTICE!!! We can be Cleansed and Reconciled to The Heavenly Father, only by his Son for Salvation! pERIOD!
This is just getting too easy, and the results too predictable.
Cathy,
that’s all very well but if we start throwing paraphrases at each other without trying to understand their meaning and significance both in historical setting and in todays world we come up with thing like me replying to you such as
Oh yes Cathy but Our lord also told his Apostles (my paraphrasing) THERE ARE MANY MANSIONS IUN MY FATHERS HOUSE. IF THIS WAS NOT SO I WOULD HAVE TOLD YOU
The significance is that intellectually we are unable to disqualify this or that saying but we must try and place it in its setting.
The condemnation is for the people that refuse to believe in the Christ. That is the Saviour. That is bad people that today do wicked things or do not care what happens to other people etc. My quptation shows that Gods kingdom covers a multitude etc.
Mark.
Theology is never simple although I do appreciate that some weak minded folk think it may be!
Scampy22
Have you heard of an Old Doctrine, which is Ignored today:
The Fewness Of The Saved???
The Churchl, does NOT want Ppl to know this, and will NOT speak of this In TODAY’S MASS……afraid it will scare off ppl !
IT WILL!
MEMBERSHIP IS THE NAME OF THE GAME!
Cathy,
You know when I was still inside my Mothers womb etc she had to go to Church and apologise for missing her periods. Pregnant woman were advised because of the blood thing that they were unclean and had to do a penance for such a thing.
In the Old Doctrine it was also considered that babys unbaptized could not enter into Gods glory because they were outside the club of the Church and hence we had Limbo served up to us as if it was a new reality?
I am afraid but that is all a load of Rubbish!
The reason the Church no longer thinks and advances such things is because it has reinterpreted these states within a growing knowledge of the world and the will of Gods Love.
So that for example, when the New World was first discovered the inhabitants were initially thought of as slaves and not quite people. Today even the most austere celebrant would appreciate such ideas as invalid and simply foolish. Yet at the time they may have been required? But that was then and the new world we have shows these ideas as Mistaken nowadays.
So the idea that you present of a few in a Membership as Saved is I attest simply for us today Incorrect.
Basically it comes from a time when Catholics were forbidden to even go into a non Catholic Church in case they were tainted in their intellect by the Protestant or heathen. Today such ideas are laughable and absurd.
So my reply to you is that the Catholic Church grows and hopefully like any child grows in grace and so we reject the notion of a few.
Did you know for example that the Jehovah Witnesses take Scripture at its face value. So in revelation when 144 thousand are saved that is the figure they claim are saved! Nothing to do with 12X12 and the tribes of Israel etc. They maintain Scripture says only 144 thousand are saints saved, Such a notion is incorrect and shows these people up as fools and misled by stupid understanding!
So please do not imagine that few are saved or saveable because that belittles Our Lords Sacrifice and insults the intellect of good people worldwide.
Scampy22,
The Jehovahs Witness’s are a cult, who do not believe, in the Trinity and that Christ is God. They have a Bible, that answers to their, Religious viewpoint.
Does that diminish, the Christian Doctrine, that Christ, Himself told of the “Wheat and Tares (Weeds)?”…..The Saved and Unsaved???
God is Unchangeable, The SAME, Yesterday, Today, and Forever!!!
Man may Change, but God NEVER Changes!
His Word Is TRUTH!
What can you, possibly, say to that?
C
Scampy22,
The Catholics, thought Women Were UNCLEAN, that were Pregnant, and had to do Penance. That is the Polar Opposite , of Judaism, with Their PURITY LAWS, which Christ’s Mother-Mary had to partake in, with Jewish Law!
In Genesis, we are commanded by God, to be Fruitful and Multiply!
There should have NEVER, been placed any shame , or Penance, on a Married Woman, compliant with Gods Will!
Under Mosaic Law, women suffering from any issue of blood, no matter the cause, were considered unclean. That’s no longer the case because Christians are not now and never were under the Old Law.
As for Limbo – Pope Benedict XVI offered an opinion about it – just as he did about Purgatory. On both these points his opinion is worth about the same as any other Catholic’s. Meanwhile, the Catholic Church has never reversed its’ official position or teaching about either. What has resulted is an even greater level of confusion about whether the Catholic Church still understands what or more importantly, who it stands for – or whether the modernists who presently run the church are still so enamored with their own “deep thoughts” that they can’t stomach and won’t tolerate much of anything else.
The Church clearly has had no new divine revelations from God since the death of the apostles. No authentic new additions to the sacred deposit of faith. Yet by the looks of things, that seems impossible. Impossible that is, until you look at their results, which are absolutely dismal and shameful, almost without exception.
That tells you all you need to know about their “advanced intellect”.
As for how many will be saved – that remains a judgment left up to Jesus Christ alone.
This is what Jesus had say about it:
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(Matthew 7:13-20)
There was absolutely no expiration date on any of the above.
Cheers!
Doug
Lots to reply to here. Please bear with me! 🙂
Cathy,
I agree with you! The Jehovah Witnesses are indeed a cult and certainly are not Christians. My argument is that they are also ignorant of what Tradition and Scripture reveal about the nature of the world etc . Their beliefs are in essence false and whilst they claim to be Christians they are misled and deviant from the True Universal Church.
I agree that God does not change. Basically the I AM from himself is a reference to God IS. That is outside of time as we know it, he is not a part of Creation and IS beyond our reckoning.
In the Eastern Churchs, the idea of God is often presented formerly as a Mystery. In the Western Church generally we stress the Light of God but in the Older Eastern rites he is seen as primarily a Mystery. That does not mean we do not know anything about him but rather he remains unfathomable.
If we see God as the great mystery. Literally Great as in all eternal and unapproachable mystery by our intellect then we see God as that which we do not encompass. We see God as Almighty in the Western Church but basically that means his power is not our power and his will is beyond our will. He is eternal and we are finite.
(that does not mean we cannot be with him and encounter him because as Christians we believe he gave us his Son so we could do so. For Christians we hope to be where that Mystery is revealed. That does not mean however that we will understand in an intellectual manner what that means. Faith is beyond our intellect because it is a supernatural gift and not a matter of learning or knowledge)
As a Christian I understand that he is revealed in his word and that word is his Son. In the Beginning was the word etc. . .
That revelation is about what his Son wants of us and expects us to respond to him with, namely Love.
Essentially the whole Mystery of God and the Divine Revelation of his Incarnate Son and the grace given us by his Holy Spirit all boils down to Love.
In essence the one thing God requires of us is Love. And that is unchanging and constant. The God of the OT and the NT all are about Love.
That is what I think our life on this planet is about or not about. It is about Love and how we are measured in Love and by Love. This means that our faith is always going to be important but it is never going to be as important as Love. So whom is saved or unsaved at the harvest will finally depend upon Love and not even upon other important things like faith.
That does not mean that I diminish the value of Faith. Certainly not!
BUT
and it is always an important but . .If we live in the Faith then we shall love. That is the point of the faith. It is not about ritual and prayer on their own, although they may help us believe in what remains a very strange story but its greatest gift is to help us to love.
So a good christain is somebody that loves their neighbour (admittedly that is VERY hard to do sometimes) and by their faith believes in God.
Faith teaches us how to love God and how to love our neighbour because our neighbour holds the likeness of Our Saviour.
Scampy22
Without Faith. It is impossible to please God…Hebrews 11:6
Faith is the substance of Hope, and the evidence of things NOT SEEN ! The Invisible World, is far from our Mortal realization, and only the gift, from God, allows us to have .faith in God (to Trust in God!)
My favorite verse about the Great I Am, regarding Love is :
Love NEVER FAILS! True Love, Unconditional Love (Agapy Love!) This is a blessing, to love and to serve others!
Back, to the Church, the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ……thru HIS Holy Spirit, we gain Revelation of HIM and Glorify HIM. HE, is certainly, our Comforter and Helper, and gives us HOPE!
The Church, is the Greatest Faith Gift , from Our Lord, to lead us, on the Path to Salvation, even though, the Church does NOT SAVE Us, only, God Saves!
For some, this might be controversial!
Yes, the Church may change with time and culture, but it really should stay conformed, to Gods Will, and remain Constant, to be HOLY!
Cathy,
In answer to your second point;
Again I certainly agree with you in part anyway.
“There should have NEVER, been placed any shame , or Penance, on a Married Woman, compliant with Gods Will!”
Unfortunately, and quite widespread in the pre Vatican Two councillor Church it was widespread and women were expected to apologise for their pregnant selves.
My point was intended to signify that the Church did things which were by our understanding in the past quite lamentable. It did things which some people have apparently forgotten and would rather choose to forget?
Yet we cannot and probably should not; from a historical perspective, blame the past for this or that. Better to be thankful that today we do not have to do some of these things. I do understand that there are still many things wrong with the Church and it needs constant renewal because it has to face a constantly changing world. It is in the world and so has to engage with new dangers all the time and I think my comments were directed originally at these constantly changing events and structures that inhabit our world.
Hence the Church changes on a practical level by generation because that is the way it meets new tasks. That does not mean that the truths of the Church are changed rather that the way the Church chooses to express these is changed and that it is thus always gathering its children to itself.
If we have faith in the Church then we understand that it is more than simple rules and regulations. It is more than a Club and more than a group of people brought together in a single spot. It is about the Spirit of God moving us ever closer to himself and his on going revelation that we are his children. With that amazing fact ringing in our ears and hopefully our hearts it is silly to attack the modern Church as being unfaithful or apostatized. Our faith if it is true and not merely a lip service will always encourage us to build on this truth and will question what we are told from age to age but it will also guide us in wisdom and understanding. Armed with these virtues we will harken back to love of Mother Church and that is the glory of the truth and the Faith.